[han]

How would you play 5C in the following auction?

2NT - 3C (some sort of puppet)
3D (denies 4 hearts, 5 spades) - 3H (asks about spades)
3S (3 spades) - 4H (4 spades, 5+ diamonds, slam interest)
4NT (no fit) - 5C (??)

If you really dislike this form of puppet stayman, imagine the auction had gone

2NT - 3C (standard puppet)
3D - 3H
3NT - 4D
4NT - 5C

[bluecalm]

I think cue-bid setting diamonds as trumps.
Something like:

Axxx xx AKJxxx x

[paulg]

Fragment, more useful than last train.

[helene_t]

If opener really doesn't have a fit he has 3 spades, 2-3 hearts, 2 diamonds and therefore 5-6 clubs. With 4153, responder should have a way to try for 6♣ I think.

[bluecalm]

Quote

If opener really doesn't have a fit he has 3 spades, 2-3 hearts, 2 diamonds and therefore 5-6 clubs.

He could be 3-3-3-4.

Quote

With 4153, responder should have a way to try for 6♣ I think.

I don't dispute that fragment might be better use for the bid. 5c as cuebid just seems natural to me.
I feel it's very difficult to decide what is more useful.

[Hanoi5]

If you play Baron, which you might use with 4054, then it's a cue-bid with 6+ diamonds. If you don't play Baron and had no better way of showing clubs, spades and diamonds, then it's natural (but then it would be dangerous, I think).

[kenrexford]

I agree with the need to know if 4C is Baron. Even if not, the suggestion is good. Regardless, natural would be my take.

[han]

2NT - 4C would be hearts.

2NT - 3C - 3D - 4C would show clubs.

2NT - 3C - 3D - 3H - 3S - 4C would be a slam try in spades (which is I think is very good btw. Similarly: 2NT - 3C - 3S - 4C = slam try in spades, 4D shows clubs, 4H shows diamonds.).

No Baron.

[TimG]

I think natural in the sense that it offers a strain to play in, but I think 4153 is possible. With 4054, a jump to 6C might be in order. This way opener has some idea of when to pull to 6N (with 3334). Since there could be just a 43 club fit, I think it has to be forcing.

Sort of along the same principle that 2N-4N-5C is forcing.

[Phil]

Sounds natural. Forcing of course.

I play the same form of Stayman with Mark, although I'm not familiar with your use of 4♥ here.

[han]

I don't see why it is forcing of course. As Tim said, with 4-0-5-4 you can just jump to 6C. With a 4-1-5-3 you can also bid 5NT if you definitely want to be in slam.

Natural NF seems useful. Since your shape is known exactly, partner should be able to make a very good decision. His 2NT openers can fit extremely well or very poorly.

Is the reason for playing it as forcing so that you can better investigate a grand slam?

In my opinion the auction 2NT - 4NT - 5C is not that similar. Far less is known in terms of shape.

[han]

Phil, on 2012-August-16, 08:35, said:

Sounds natural. Forcing of course.

I play the same form of Stayman with Mark, although I'm not familiar with your use of 4♥ here.

You could instead play

4C = slam interest in spades
4D = diamonds
4H = clubs

That way you lose two steps in clubs and none in diamonds. Being European I like to divide the costs equally between clubs and diamonds (more seriously, we like to play this way because in similar auctions diamonds may not have been bid, so this may right-side diamond contracts). The important improvement (imo) is to use 4C instead of 4H as a slam try in spades.

[Phil]

han, on 2012-August-16, 08:55, said:

I don't see why it is forcing of course. As Tim said, with 4-0-5-4 you can just jump to 6C. With a 4-1-5-3 you can also bid 5NT if you definitely want to be in slam.

Natural NF seems useful. Since your shape is known exactly, partner should be able to make a very good decision. His 2NT openers can fit extremely well or very poorly.

Is the reason for playing it as forcing so that you can better investigate a grand slam?

In my opinion the auction 2NT - 4NT - 5C is not that similar. Far less is known in terms of shape.

I don't think I would pull 3N with a 0454 six count. Maybe I'm not investigating a grand slam, so if you wanted to make 5♣ as 'forward going' but not forcing, I'd buy that.

[CSGibson]

I think the only definition that would not make sense to me is natural and forcing, since those can be bid with 6C/5N. I also think it is what your agreement shows it is, though natural and non-forcing but constructive toward slam makes the most sense to me.

[han]

Phil, on 2012-August-16, 09:02, said:

I don't think I would pull 3N with a 0454 six count. Maybe I'm not investigating a grand slam, so if you wanted to make 5♣ as 'forward going' but not forcing, I'd buy that.

Yeah that's what I'm suggesting, slam interest but not forcing. And I note that Gibson is with me again, and he is without a partner. Alas, different continents.

[lalldonn]

Natural not forcing seems obvious to me. I generally agree that's what all bids are over quantitative 4NT bids. Natural and forcing hands can bid 6 of a suit or 5NT. Also I definitely think it can be a three-card suit. I just don't think you would get enough mileage out of forcing it to be 4054 since that's so uncommon.

[gszes]

playing 5c as natural and forcing makes little sense since we can
so easily bid 5n to show a (5404 6403) hand and bid 6c to show
a 5413 hand.


Playng 5c as natural and non forcing has much more appeal but
such hands will almost always be better off just bidding 3n after
p denies having 5 spades. P having nothing in hearts for their
2n opening is too rare and we need the bidding space more for
slam exploration rather than speculating 5c might be superior to
3n.

In the end i chose artificial because we really need to be able to
search efficiently for slam with a hand like the one posted by bluecalm
Axxx xx AKxxxx x or KQxx x AKxxxx xx (bid 5d with this one to show
heart control no club control).

Having a cue bid here is a heck of an advantage
since bidding 5c can show our club control and bidding 5d can show
a heart control (no club control). Here the bidding can make a dramatic
difference between stopping in 5d and possibly even getting to 7d.
The ability to show a 6th dia can make a huge difference to opener
in overall hand evaluation for slam purposes whereas it makes only
a small difference to responder.


Last train makes little sense here since there is no room to explore
what it means ---- the ability to cue bid is way more important.

[TimG]

lalldonn, on 2012-August-16, 10:59, said:

Natural not forcing seems obvious to me. I generally agree that's what all bids are over quantitative 4NT bids. Natural and forcing hands can bid 6 of a suit or 5NT. Also I definitely think it can be a three-card suit. I just don't think you would get enough mileage out of forcing it to be 4054 since that's so uncommon.

Isn't 1N-4N-5C forcing? The way I understand quantitative 4NT is that any move over 4NT is forcing to slam. 5C in my auction does not say "nope, I don't have enough for slam, let's play in a minor suit game instead" but rather "I'll accept your slam try, but maybe NT isn't the best strain".

[CSGibson]

han, on 2012-August-16, 09:09, said:

And I note that Gibson is with me again, and he is without a partner. Alas, different continents.

Without a partner was temporary - I'm working on a serious main partnership again as well as a few other things with different players - different continents (on my part, at least) was/is not temporary.