[mr1303]

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2 Part question.

1) What do you call now?

2) If you choose 4D, a splinter (that does not distinguish between singletons or voids), partner will bid 4NT, 0314 RKCB. What do you call now?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

1)
3D = jump-reverse splinter ... singleton
4D = void

2a) After the void splinter you can show 1 key card normally ( 5D = 1 or 4 ).

2b) If your 4D just showed a singleton, bid 6D = odd ( 1 or 3 ) + ♦void

[Phil]

In MY methods, this is a 4♥ rebid.

[dkham]

 Phil, on 2012-August-21, 08:52, said:

In MY methods, this is a 4♥ rebid.

I'm glad I have 4♦ avilable here for a splinter. I'd then make a void showing bid, like TWO4BRIDGE

[Cyberyeti]

 Phil, on 2012-August-21, 08:52, said:

In MY methods, this is a 4♥ rebid.

I think it is for me too. It's a nasty situation, partner can have what he thinks is a fine hand (KJx, J109x, AKQ, J10x and you find you can't make 4♥ either with hearts 3-1 or a club ruff. He can also have what he thinks is not stellar (xxx, AKxxx, xxx, J10) and slam is 50% on the best lead, and much better on anything else.

If 4♥ shows a highly distributional raise with a lot of clubs and 4 or 5 hearts, that's the bid I think (some people play 4♣ as similar if 4♥ can be a good hand). I don't really like the splinter with no high hearts. Partner is going to really like KJx, QJxxx, Axx, AJ when you splinter, you might not like the resulting slam after you bid 6♦ over 4N.

I play the 4♦ in Two4's method 1, with the agreement that you bid 4♥ if you're not excited by the diamond void and give exclusion responses if you are, but this doesn't tell me what I need to know so I wouldn't use it. (xxx, AKxxx, xxx, xx = good, Kxx, Kxxx, xxx, AJx = bad, same blackwood response)

The answer to Blackwood is whatever you've agreed it is with one ace and a "useful" void. My agreement with pard is that we just show one ace because we'll usually have already shown the void, and only show it to Blackwood if we have 2 aces.

[SteveMoe]

4♥ - for reasons already given, secretly wishing I held as little more as the ♥Q so I could bid 3♦ (or 4♦=void but none of my partners are here yet...)

[han]

I would also bid 4H.

[phil_20686]

Dont most people have 4d available to show a void? That seems perfect.

[rhm]

 Cyberyeti, on 2012-August-21, 12:57, said:

I play the 4♦ in Two4's method 1, with the agreement that you bid 4♥ if you're not excited by the diamond void and give exclusion responses if you are, but this doesn't tell me what I need to know so I wouldn't use it. (xxx, AKxxx, xxx, xx = good, Kxx, Kxxx, xxx, AJx = bad, same blackwood response)

You must play in very friendly games, where non vulnerable opponents with a ten card fit and all honors in their suit plus an outside ace pass throughout.

Frankly I can not see the benefit opposite an unlimited partner to distinguish in strength between a triple raise to game by opener and a splinter below game.
4♥ is no less of an overbid than 4♦ is, but 4♦ is much more descriptive.
Both bids have to be strong bids in natural systems and the deciding difference should be distribution not honor strength.
Otherwise responder will have an impossible job to decide what to do over 4♥. How is responder supposed to distinguish between this hand and a balanced 19 count?
If 4♥ can be unbalanced responder can not judge how well his side suit honors are working.
In that sense 4♥ should deny a singleton or void and the minimum HCP must be higher since you are jumping to game on a balanced hand.

If 4♦ does not guarantee a void, I like to play 4NT as Blackwood ignoring a void in the splinter suit and raising the splinter suit should be inclusion keycard Blackwood
(Treat a possible void like an additional key-card).

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

 rhm, on 2012-August-22, 06:31, said:

You must play in very friendly games, where non vulnerable opponents with a ten card fit and all honors in their suit plus an outside ace pass throughout.

OK, maybe the example wasn't good, maybe the spades were 6 small opposite AKQJ and out.

Quote

Frankly I can not see the benefit opposite an unlimited partner to distinguish in strength between a triple raise to game by opener and a splinter below game.
4♥ is no less of an overbid than 4♦ is, but 4♦ is much more descriptive.
Both bids have to be strong bids in natural systems and the deciding difference should be distribution not honor strength.
Otherwise responder will have an impossible job to decide what to do over 4♥. How is responder supposed to distinguish between this hand and a balanced 19 count?
If 4♥ can be unbalanced responder can not judge how well his side suit honors are working.
In that sense 4♥ should deny a singleton or void and the minimum HCP must be higher since you are jumping to game on a balanced hand.

If 4♦ does not guarantee a void, I like to play 4NT as Blackwood ignoring a void in the splinter suit and raising the splinter suit should be inclusion keycard Blackwood
(Treat a possible void like an additional key-card).

this is method dependent depending on what range of hands you splinter on and what hands you bid 4♥. For us the void splinter is unlimited, 4♥ is specifically weak and shapely, so it is descriptive. I'm not clear what other people mean by these bids.

[kmbrunsk]

For those who play 4h as distributional, how do you show a big balanced hand with support for hearts?

Because I think 4h should be distributional just not sure how to modify my agreements.

[Cyberyeti]

 kmbrunsk, on 2012-August-23, 20:10, said:

For those who play 4h as distributional, how do you show a big balanced hand with support for hearts?

Because I think 4h should be distributional just not sure how to modify my agreements.

Depending on exact shape, we play both 2N (lots of GF hands) and 3N (4 card support, (3)4(2)4/(4)4(1)4 rebids as artificial, we also open 2N on decent 19s so rarely hold full blown balanced game forces, our club shows 4 and we open 1m with 4M4m32 even though we play 4 card majors. You can only really do this in a weak no trump context with a wide range stronger 1N rebid.

[mr1303]

Partner had:

xx
AQ10x
Kxxx
Axx. She bid 4NT RKCB, and I declined to show the void by bidding 6D, so when partner signed off in 5H we left it. The ace of diamonds lead helped a fair bit, but the KJ of hearts was in the slot.

[han]

 kmbrunsk, on 2012-August-23, 20:10, said:

For those who play 4h as distributional, how do you show a big balanced hand with support for hearts?

We play that 3D is a stronger raise than 3H. After both 3D and 3H, 3S asks, and then:

1st step: no shortness, 2-4-2-5
2nd step: low shortness
3rd step: high shortness
4th step: balanced (3H cannot be balanced)

[han]

Good hand for transfer Walsh, on a spade lead (called for by the auction, especially if you show your void) it is not so clear that you want to be in 6H.

In general I don't like splintering and then, when my partner reacts positively and asks for keycards, not showing my void. It feels inconsistent. By the way, why 6D? I'm guessing that 6C shows the heart queen, 6H denies it and 6D (in between) shows extra length? That's a great agreement.

[JLOGIC]

4H? Don't people also bid 4H with Ax AKxx xx AKxxx in standard bidding?

Assuming no special methods, I cannot imagine bidding 4H, which to me shows no splinter and a very strong hand (5422 or 4432 and very prime). I can't imagine partner evaluating correctly.

Assuming 3H is either an unbalanced hand with not enough to splinter, equivalent to a balanced 18 count, or a balanced 18-19 that is not super prime, I would bid 3H. I also consider this to be pretty standard?!

[JLOGIC]

4H? Don't people also bid 4H with Ax AKxx xx AKxxx in standard bidding?

Assuming no special methods, I cannot imagine bidding 4H, which to me shows no splinter and a very strong hand (5422 or 4432 and very prime). I can't imagine partner evaluating correctly.

Assuming 3H is either an unbalanced hand with not enough to splinter, equivalent to a balanced 18 count, or a balanced 18-19 that is not super prime, I would bid 3H. I also consider this to be pretty standard?!

[Cyberyeti]

 JLOGIC, on 2012-August-26, 13:38, said:

4H? Don't people also bid 4H with Ax AKxx xx AKxxx in standard bidding?

Assuming no special methods, I cannot imagine bidding 4H, which to me shows no splinter and a very strong hand (5422 or 4432 and very prime). I can't imagine partner evaluating correctly.

Assuming 3H is either an unbalanced hand with not enough to splinter, equivalent to a balanced 18 count, or a balanced 18-19 that is not super prime, I would bid 3H. I also consider this to be pretty standard?!

What do people bid 1♣-1♥-4♣ on, one use is that hand you give (certainly what we use it for).

[JLOGIC]

When I learned bridge 1C 1H 4C showed (a concentrated?) 6-4. Maybe this has changed, feel free to correct me if I' wrong.

I do not think normal methods are good here, if you only use 3H 3S 4C 4D 4H you cannot show all hands, especially if you use 4C as I described rather than as you described. Obv a bad 6-5 with a fit for partner is going to get lost, it is generally unusual for both the opps to have passed in this case. I like 3H > 4D because partner just rates to have a lot of HCP with the opps passing and has no room over the splinter so we are often going to get too high opposite that hand type if it doesn't fit well and we splinter since usually we will have AKx AQxx x AJxxx or something. But to me 4H would show a different hand type barring non-standard methods.

[Cyberyeti]

 JLOGIC, on 2012-August-26, 14:26, said:

When I learned bridge 1C 1H 4C showed (a concentrated?) 6-4. Maybe this has changed, feel free to correct me if I' wrong.

I do not think normal methods are good here, if you only use 3H 3S 4C 4D 4H you cannot show all hands, especially if you use 4C as I described rather than as you described. Obv a bad 6-5 with a fit for partner is going to get lost, it is generally unusual for both the opps to have passed in this case. I like 3H > 4D because partner just rates to have a lot of HCP with the opps passing and has no room over the splinter so we are often going to get too high opposite that hand type if it doesn't fit well and we splinter since usually we will have AKx AQxx x AJxxx or something. But to me 4H would show a different hand type barring non-standard methods.

We use very non standard methods involving a GF unbalanced 2N, have different bids for singleton splinters and void splinters here, and also have 2 ways of bidding 2425s depending on which doubleton we need the control in. I've been doing this for long enough that I'd lost track of what it was used for in standard, I suspect I just never bid it when I was learning.