gwnn, on 2012-October-22, 11:13, said:
mikeh, the point of 2S NF is that often you have a hand like AKJxx x KJxx Axx where you can have game if partner has 3 cards in spades but where you wouldn't really like to be higher than 2S if partner has 0-2 spades (maybe you disagree with this example hand but I'm sure that you can change it a bit to agree with it). The point is NOT to improve the partscore and not, to my mind, to make a general invite with 5+ spades. I think there are much more hands that want to bid 2S NF than F but it obviously depends on a lot of stuff.
I understand all this, even if my post suggested otherwise. Of course, there are hands on which we want to explore game if partner has, for example, a decent hand and 3 spades, while preserving the option of the 2-level when he doesn't.
But there are similar hands where we want to be in game if he has a good hand with 2 spades (especially Hx), and hands where we want to get back to 3
♥ rather than languish in 2
♠ opposite a stiff or void.
So 2
♠ nf isn't a panacea that caters to all various 'we may have game' holdings. In the meantime, when we know that 'a' game will probably make, but we don't know which one, having to go through 2N to establish a force is cumbersome, regardless of what your response structure may be. Indeed, in order to accommodate this issue, one will have to limit the options available to opener.
For example, after a 2
♠ opening, one will have problems with a gf hand with hearts, since opener may rebid 3M over 2N...now how do you force in hearts or even give a cog option?
I guess my imp bias is showing through. I'll settle for playing 2
♥ or 3
♥ when a spade partial would be better just so that I am able to bid game and slam more reliably, which includes having what I feel is a useful 2N structure...when I respond 2N I am looking for either 3N or (far more often) the right level in partner's major...which makes my structure far more precise than it can ever be using new suit responses as nf.
I guess I am saying that when one considers the effectiveness of a nf suit response structure, you can't only look at hands where responder wants to bid his own suit.....you have to look at the cost imposed on the entire response structure.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari