[JLOGIC]

A common problem with the auction:

2S X p 2N*(leb)
p 3N AP

is that when the leb bidder has 4 hearts they might have missed a 4-4 heart fit (obviously in the enlightened times we live in the leb bidder would correct with FIVE hearts). This is somewhat annoying because 4-4 fits are awesome imo.

I was just thinking a solution to this would be to make 2S X p 3H as weak, and a constructive 3H bid starts with 2N then bids 3H. The same problem of missing a 4-4 heart fit may occur when you have a constructive 3H bid and partner has a X then 3N hand, however this is fine since you have so many values you will probably make 3N. Even if it is slightly bad, it is less likely to occur than the weak hand by a lot when partner has a 3N bid.

The only downside I see is that this is vulnerable to preemption via 2S X p 2N p 3C 3S where you now haven't shown your constructive heart hand. However, usually RHOs do not pass and then bid 3S so I think this is acceptable.

Thoughts?

[JLOGIC]

Hmm I just realized this also loses on 2S X p 2N p 3S p ? when you have 4 hearts and a spade stopper since you will probably bid 3N and might miss a 4-4 heart fit again. You still have a ton of values and a spade stopper though but missing hearts there may be a lot worse than when partner has a 3N bid.

Still feels like it might be worth it but I'm not sure. I am always tilted when I hold 4 hearts on 2S X p 2N p 3N and it feels like that happens a fair amount.

[Jinksy]

Can you not play Rubensohl in that situation when you're an unpassed hand? Playing Leb you'd have to choose between GF and not GF, playing Rub you do the same.

As a passed hand it seems a bit different, since you might still want to partition your hand into 'slightly sub GF' and 'no interest in game at all' without committing the partnership past the three level.

On a normal Leb auction as above, what's the difference between overcaller bidding 3S directly and X P 2N P 3S?

[Zelandakh]

Could you get away with (2♠) - X - 2NT; 3♠ including a 3NT bid with 4 hearts? and (2♠) - X - 2NT; 3NT denying 4 hearts? Or would that put too much pressure on the cue? Or perhaps we could reverse the meanings of 3♥ and 3NT; then 3♠ over 3♥ can ask for 4 hearts.

[dake50]

Can you untangle 3-minor may have H-invite when next a negX, or 3H if available?
I'm thinking 4m4H, 5m4H, 5H4m intends this sequence.
I use xfers advances to T/O dbl, so weak advancer just xfer.
GF advancer starts 2NT, include hefty H-suit invites.
Invites bid after xfer: 2nd suit(likely Hearts) or a hefty fragment.

[JLOGIC]

Zelandakh, on 2012-November-22, 04:39, said:

Could you get away with (2♠) - X - 2NT; 3♠ including a 3NT bid with 4 hearts? and (2♠) - X - 2NT; 3NT denying 4 hearts? Or would that put too much pressure on the cue? Or perhaps we could reverse the meanings of 3♥ and 3NT; then 3♠ over 3♥ can ask for 4 hearts.

There are too many hands in the subset of hands that cannot bid 3N and also don't have 4 hearts. This is especially true if 3D over 2N is ELC and not a big hand, in that case all club hands, diamond hands, 3 suited without 3 hearts, etc have to go through 3S. For instance I would bid 3S on x Ax AQxx AKJxxx (wouldn't everyone?). I would also bid 3S on xx AKxx AJx AKJx. I would also bid 3S on x Kxx AKxx AKQxx. You get the idea.

I think if you have 3S and 3N only dedicated to 4 heart and non 4 heart hands you are creating an impossible problem with the no stopper and no 4 heart hands.

[JLOGIC]

Jinksy, on 2012-November-22, 04:26, said:

Can you not play Rubensohl in that situation when you're an unpassed hand? Playing Leb you'd have to choose between GF and not GF, playing Rub you do the same.

As a passed hand it seems a bit different, since you might still want to partition your hand into 'slightly sub GF' and 'no interest in game at all' without committing the partnership past the three level.

On a normal Leb auction as above, what's the difference between overcaller bidding 3S directly and X P 2N P 3S?

2S X p 3x is not forcing playing leb. Leb over a weak 2 X does not work like leb over 1N 2x.

[gnasher]

Rubensohl doesn't work very well here, because advancer can't show constructive values. Hybrid methods work better, for example:
2NT = weak with clubs or constructive+ with diamonds
3♣ = weak with diamonds or constructive+ with hearts (but not exactly constructive with exactly 4)
3♦ = weak with hearts or FG with clubs
3♥ = constructive with exactly four hearts

I think this solves the problems that Justin was talking about:
- Opposite a 3♣ bid, the doubler assumes it's weak with diamonds. If it goes 3♣-3NT or 3♣-3♠, advancer can't have a constructive hand with exactly four hearts, so we avoid that problem.
- Opposite a 3♦ bid, the doubler assumes it's weak with hearts. If he bids 4♥ and advancer has clubs, we're probably safe in 4NT or 5♣.

There are two other advantages:
- Advancer can explore sensibly when he has game values.
- When advancer is weak and doubler is bidding 3NT, we only wrongside 3NT 1/3 of the time instead of all the time.

And one big disadvantage:
- We can't show a constructive hand with clubs.

[JLOGIC]

That downside is a really really big one imo. Constructive and inv with clubs seem pretty important, moreso when we have no natural 2N bid and would often like to compromise with a 3m bid rather than overbidding with 3N if possible. Clubs is also not a suit we can count on to get excited about (depending on how you play I guess). Having 9/10/11 counts and having to force to game or show "weak" with clubs when I don't even have a nat 2N bid, meh.

On the other hand your proposed method is very good otherwise, again maybe it is worth it or maybe it isn't.

Gnasher do you play that with anyone? Curious how it works irl.

[Jinksy]

JLOGIC, on 2012-November-22, 04:51, said:

2S X p 3x is not forcing playing leb. Leb over a weak 2 X does not work like leb over 1N 2x.

Ah... do you do with a GF shapely hand then? Do you just have to jump/cue and start showing your suits at the 4 level?

[JLOGIC]

Jinksy, on 2012-November-22, 05:06, said:

Ah... do you do with a GF shapely hand then? Do you just have to jump/cue and start showing your suits at the 4 level?

Personally I play direct 3S= not 4 hearts and no spade stopper, 2N then 3N as 4 hearts and a spade stopper, 2N then 3S as 4 hearts and no spade stopper or very strong with 5+ hearts, direct 4m=non forcing but invite based on shape, 2N then 4m as natural and forcing, and 2N then 4H as a mild slam try but I think many people play many different things.

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on 2012-November-22, 05:03, said:

Gnasher do you play that with anyone? Curious how it works irl.

No, I've never actually played it - it's just something that I post on internet forums from time to time.

[32519]

Justin, I don’t have the solution to your question but I am contributing this to generate further ideas from the BBO Forum posters.

This is how I understand your current agreements when the auction goes:
(2♠)-X-(P)-?
• 3♠ = No 4♥, no ♠ Stopper (a possible 3NT contract has been right-sided when doubler has the stopper)
• 2NT followed with 3NT = 4♥, with ♠ Stopper (a possible 3NT contract is again right-sided)
• 2NT followed with 3♠ = 4♥, no ♠ Stopper or very strong with 5+ ♥ (a possible 3NT contract is wrong-sided although it can still make depending on what the doubler holds in the ♠ suit)
• 4m = Non-forcing based on shape
• 2NT followed with 4m = Natural and forcing
• 2NT followed with 4♥ = Mild slam try

JLOGIC, on 2012-November-22, 03:35, said:

A common problem with the auction:

2S X p 2N*(leb)
p 3N AP

is that when the leb bidder has 4 hearts they might have missed a 4-4 heart fit (obviously in the enlightened times we live in the leb bidder would correct with FIVE hearts). This is somewhat annoying because 4-4 fits are awesome imo.

Thoughts?

The OP is all about finding the 4-4 ♥ fit after a t/o X of a weak 2♠ bid. So, shooting from the hip, how about adding this?
After the t/o X, then
**3♥ = 4+ card suit, 8+ HCP WITH ♠ Stopper to right-side a possible 3NT contract when the auction continues
++++3♠ by X = only 3-card ♥ suit asking responder to bid 3NT
++++3NT by X = to play, I also have a ♠ Stopper or ½ a ♠ Stopper (e.g. Jxx), I am the big hand
++++4♥ = to play, 4-card ♥ suit
Continuation by responder
======3NT over 3♠ = to play, only 4-card ♥ suit
======4m over 3♠ = 5-card ♥ suit and 4+ minor suit, mild slam try
======4♥ over 3♠ = to play, 5-card ♥ suit, denying slam try
**3♠ = 4+ card ♥ suit, 8+ HCP, WITHOUT ♠ Stopper to right-side a possible 3NT contract when the auction continues
++++3NT by X = to play, only 3-card ♥ suit, I have the ♠ Stopper
++++4♥ = to play, 4-card ♥ suit
Continuation by responder
======Pass = to play
======4m = 5-card ♥ suit and 4+ minor suit, mild slam try
======4♥ = 5-card ♥ suit, denying slam try
++2NT followed with 3♠ = denies a 4-card ♥ suit, 8+ HCP, guarantees a ♠ Stopper to right-side a possible 3NT contract

[Cascade]

We have played 2NT showing strong hands and all 3-level bids are weak for some time. You can define all of the auctions through 2NT. Of course you can do that when 2NT is Lebensohl but I dislike the ambiguity of range with standard Lebensohl.

[awm]

My solution to this involves using doublers rebids over 2nt a bit differently as:

3c = normal accept of lebensohl
3d = artificial force with strong hand
3h = natural, strong flexible hand
3s = stopper ask, not 4h
3nt = balanced strong, not 4h

The 3d bid let's us find a heart fit; advancer bids 3h with four or otherwise 3s/3nt depending on spade stop.

I suppose this means I can't play equal level correction in this auction; haven't found that a big issue.

[Fluffy]

adam's structure was more or less the one an italian friend taught me, but he was playing reversed lebensohl, where 3x was weak, and 2NT was inv+, he said setting a GF with 3♦ was useful.

[han]

We also play reverse lebensohl after 2S - Dbl - p. After 2NT (8+):

3C = minimal takeout double. Now 3D and 3H are to play and 3S is a slam try in the major.
3D = GF, either strong with diamonds or 4 hearts.
3H = GF with clubs (now 3S by advancer shows 4 hearts).
3S = GF with 5/6 hearts.