[mikeh]

 JLOGIC, on 2013-January-14, 19:50, said:

Interesting, it is far more obvious to me to avoid the spade fit at IMPs. I mean, we got 29-30 HCP and stoppers, we aren't going down in 3N whereas 4S in a 4-4 when we have xxxx could go down sometimes. At MP, spades might play a trick better so I'd be more worried.

Yes: I read this post and thought...who's he referring to? Then I looked at my post and realized it was me! I actually agree with this: in fact I still remember a hand from 30 years ago in which we picked up a game swing on exactly this situation, tho it was a 1N opening: with about 28 hcp, and a heart suit of xxxx I just bid 3N and hearts were 4-1 with 3 inescapable losers in the suit, and a side A, while 3N had a trivial 9 tops..and made 10 on a heart lead.

[awm]

To Justin's points:

- I'm not worried about partner jumping to 4♠ because my partners don't jump to 4♠ on this auction. Even an opener hand like ♠AKxx ♥Kx ♦AQxxxx ♣x is a good slam opposite the responder hand; I don't want to force opener to guess whether to go to the five-level.

- I have a neat convention to handle the problem after 1m-1♥-1♠-1NT (as well as handling many other problems)

- I haven't found this positional thing to be a disaster when it has come up. YMMV.

- I've also found that opponents make pretty decent leads into me when I rebid 2NT etc. because they know a lot about my minor suit holding, partner's heart holding, and sometimes partner bids checkback etc. I'm also pretty sure that 2NT rebid that normally denies four spades is not alertable (negative inferences not alertable, 1NT rebids not alertable regardless of whether they deny four spades, etc).

- Some pretty good unbalanced hands are rebidding 1♠ right? The only alternative in most cases is a GF 2♠, so whatever hands are not willing to GF (maybe 4153 18-count?) rebid 1♠. I don't think the balanced 18-19 is really much better than those hands. Also, I know you respond 1♥ on total trash with a five card heart suit (so do I) which means getting out in 1♠ is not all that far-fetched.

- Every time I have played 1♠ on this auction with this hand it's like an automatic MP top. And sometimes opponents decide to balance and get mauled in 1NT or 2m. Maybe at IMPs it's less of a winner, but it seems to me not that infrequent and a massive source of MP.

[JLOGIC]

Yeah I actually think mentally of rebidding 1S with 18-19 bal as an awm thing, you have written that you liked it for a long time. Is your convention the 2 of the minor rebid (think you posted about using that as something before)? If so that seems like a useful solution.

I believe you that playing 1S works well at MP, and my thought processes are always geared towards imps, but I'd think that the wrongsiding and information leak hurts more in MP, and having a normal 3N hand must come up much more than playing 1S. That said, you have bid 1S and I have not, so I cannot argue with your experience on this matter.

[1eyedjack]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-January-14, 14:26, said:

This is the price you pay for having 1x-1y-2N available as an unbalanced GF which works really well. Also bad 19 opposite 6 doesn't make game very often so we need 7 to invite, you don't tend to get silly results in 2N very often, and quite often you play 2M in a 4-3 which plays better than 1N frequently enough to not be much of a problem.

I get the best of both worlds by playing TWalsh. With the above hand open 1C not 1D, and rebid 1N with 18-20. Accept transfer to major with 12-14. Open 1N at the outset with 15-17. And I still get to jump 2N rebid with an unbalanced hand, and no NT range is more than 3.

[rhm]

deleted

[Fluffy]

 awm, on 2013-January-14, 20:04, said:

However I think the 4s bid is a big mistake. It hangs opener when he has extras by removing all space to cue. If we want to game force, why not 4th suit force followed by a raise? This leaves plenty of room to negotiate slam (including using non-serious 3nt to limit the hands) and still get out at the four level.

So is 4♠ a splinter with hearts or with diamonds?

[Vampyr]

 gnasher, on 2013-January-14, 08:41, said:

1. It's a matter of partnership agreement. Personally I prefer to play that this hand rebids 1♠. I dislike losing the 4-4 spade fit when it's a partscore hand, and I don't think there's much downside to playing 1♠ as either unbalanced or 18-19 balanced.

How do you continue? (And a related question (sorry) -- when you do rebid 2NT what is your (presumably transfer) scheme?

[MickyB]

If responder has to cater to opener rebidding 1S on 18-19 NTs, I suggest rebidding 1S on some unbalanced 19s as well. If partner passes 1S you are unlikely to be missing anything, and when you do rebid 2S partner won't be tempted to pass it holding trash. I much prefer this, as there exist GF two-suiters that I'll choose to open 1C instead of 2C.

[PhilKing]

 MickyB, on 2013-January-15, 08:33, said:

If responder has to cater to opener rebidding 1S on 18-19 NTs, I suggest rebidding 1S on some unbalanced 19s as well. If partner passes 1S you are unlikely to be missing anything, and when you do rebid 2S partner won't be tempted to pass it holding trash. I much prefer this, as there exist GF two-suiters that I'll choose to open 1C instead of 2C.

Play "drop dead" Lebensohl over the 2♠ rebid. This caters for the underweight responses players tend to make when playing an overloaded 1♣. Opener bids 3♣ unless he has an absolute mountain, over which responder clarifies. 3♠, for instance, would now show about a 3-count with 4 four spades.

Note: not suggesting a 2♠ rebid on this hand.

As the bidding went, no way does North have an invite. What are you playing partner for?

For every one time he has ♠Qxxx ♥KJxx ♦Kx ♣Axx or some other miracle hand, you go off in five or get to six one off about ten times, I would estimate. Partner almost never has a perfecto when he just jumps to game.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 dboxley, on 2013-January-14, 06:07, said:

MP's Dlr W All Vul

---

The GGG alternative ( gameforce over a 1H response ):
1D - 1H
2S! = GF, may be artificial
...... - 2NT! = asks clarification
??
.. 3C! ( om ) = 4s, no 3h
.. 3D! = just long minor, no 4s, no 3h
.. 3H! = no 4s, but have 3h
.. 3S! = 4s and 3h
After:
3C! - 3S ( 4s )
4D ( cue, denying a ♣-Ctrl )
...... - 4H ( cue, implying a ♣-Ctrl )
4NT - 5H ( 2 - ♠ Q )
6S

[Phil]

Quote

To Justin's points:

Quote

I'm not worried about partner jumping to 4♠ because my partners don't jump to 4♠ on this auction.

That may be true, but there's nothing to stop responder from choosing 4♠ over 3N.

Quote

- I have a neat convention to handle the problem after 1m-1♥-1♠-1NT (as well as handling many other problems)

Please elaborate.

Quote

- I haven't found this positional thing to be a disaster when it has come up. YMMV.

My mileage says its a net loss. Sometimes a disaster. Plus the strong hand is on the table and its easier to defend!

Quote

- I've also found that opponents make pretty decent leads into me when I rebid 2NT etc. because they know a lot about my minor suit holding, partner's heart holding, and sometimes partner bids checkback etc. I'm also pretty sure that 2NT rebid that normally denies four spades is not alertable (negative inferences not alertable, 1NT rebids not alertable regardless of whether they deny four spades, etc).

Of course 2N isn't alertable (?!). So your opponents make better leads when we bid fewer suits?

Quote

- Some pretty good unbalanced hands are rebidding 1♠ right? The only alternative in most cases is a GF 2♠, so whatever hands are not willing to GF (maybe 4153 18-count?) rebid 1♠. I don't think the balanced 18-19 is really much better than those hands. Also, I know you respond 1♥ on total trash with a five card heart suit (so do I) which means getting out in 1♠ is not all that far-fetched.

Fair point, but this isn't exactly argument against 2N. Its an excellent argument to play something like Gazilli to show a near-GF hand I suppose. You will win some partscores when responder has hearts, three spades and trash but thats about it.

Quote

- Every time I have played 1♠ on this auction with this hand it's like an automatic MP top. And sometimes opponents decide to balance and get mauled in 1NT or 2m. Maybe at IMPs it's less of a winner, but it seems to me not that infrequent and a massive source of MP.

This is a poor auction to balance into, since responder usually has three trump. The opponents have an auto lead of a trump versus 1♠, and you need to get busy establishing that extra trick in spades. I suppose you will have some +80 versus -50 scenarios but that doesn't seem like a big net gain to me, especially when some old-fashioned players are opening 18's 1N.

At IMPs, its Russian Roulette to rebid 1♠.

[gnasher]

 Vampyr, on 2013-January-15, 07:12, said:

How do you continue?

This is a little tricky to answer, because nobody actually lets me play that this hand rebids 1♠. When I made my earlier post, I was assuming that we'd contnue to bid naturally, but the idea of using the fourth suit to split opener's range is attractive.

Quote

(And a related question (sorry) -- when you do rebid 2NT what is your (presumably transfer) scheme?

I expect it's the same as everyone else's: clubs to diamonds, spades to clubs, four of a minor is a splinter with a one-suiter.

[FrancesHinden]

 gnasher, on 2013-January-15, 15:31, said:

This is a little tricky to answer, because nobody actually lets me play that this hand rebids 1♠. When I made my earlier post, I was assuming that we'd contnue to bid naturally, but the idea of using the fourth suit to split opener's range is attractive.


I expect it's the same as everyone else's: clubs to diamonds, spades to clubs, four of a minor is a splinter with a one-suiter.

We play after 1D - 1H - 1S -
2C = either a weak preference to 2D or a game force
2D = constructive preference

So if you decided to rebid 1S on this hand (we don't, we also use 2NT as artificial and open 1C on balanced hands), then you'd continue.... 2C - 2NT (balanced game force) from opening.

[lalldonn]

 awm, on 2013-January-14, 20:35, said:

- Every time I have played 1♠ on this auction with this hand it's like an automatic MP top. And sometimes opponents decide to balance and get mauled in 1NT or 2m. Maybe at IMPs it's less of a winner, but it seems to me not that infrequent and a massive source of MP.

In like 1998 I rebid 1♠ on a balanced 18 and my grandmother passed, which was perfectly normal on whatever her hand was. I made 110 and got virtually a bottom against all the 120s. I remember this because I wrote a letter to Dear Billy and it got published (woot). So while I can't say I have much experience in this area myself since I have rebid 2NT on these for a long time, I think "like an automatic MP top" must be a big exaggeration.

[jallerton]

 gnasher, on 2013-January-14, 08:41, said:

1. It's a matter of partnership agreement. Personally I prefer to play that this hand rebids 1♠. I dislike losing the 4-4 spade fit when it's a partscore hand, and I don't think there's much downside to playing 1♠ as either unbalanced or 18-19 balanced.

Do you no longer favour opening 2♦ on these 18-19 balanced hands?

[gnasher]

 jallerton, on 2013-January-15, 17:45, said:

Do you no longer favour opening 2♦ on these 18-19 balanced hands?

No, I still prefer to open 2♦. I meant that given that I'd had to open it at the one level I preferred to rebid 1♠ than 2NT. I might change my mind about that though - some of the arguments in this thread are quite convincing.

[Vampyr]

 gnasher, on 2013-January-15, 15:31, said:

I expect it's the same as everyone else's: clubs to diamonds, spades to clubs, four of a minor is a splinter with a one-suiter.

Well, it could have been something fancier! And it could have been not transfers... but what are the odds of that?

[FrancesHinden]

 Vampyr, on 2013-January-15, 18:18, said:

Well, it could have been something fancier! And it could have been not transfers... but what are the odds of that?

Jallerton and I play
3C = natural, forcing
3D = natural, forcing
3H = natural, forcing (may have 4 spades)
3S = natural, forcing (4-4 majors)
3NT = natural, non-forcing

Admittedly the 4-level bids aren't natural (apart from 4 of our major and 4NT)

[broze]

 Fluffy, on 2013-January-14, 14:17, said:

Once you eliminte the impossible, what is left must be true.

Are you trying to get in someone's sig bar?

[glen]

 broze, on 2013-January-16, 18:53, said:

Are you trying to get in someone's sig bar?

got me