[Antrax]

The agreement I currently have with my regular partner is that on (long suit game try) auctions such as this:
1M-(p)-2M-(p)
3m

Opener is worried about three losers in m and is looking for "help". If responder has two or less losers in m (and strength and shape etc) he accepts, otherwise declines or retries.
I don't feel this is a very good agreement. As opener, I find it difficult to evaluate my hand opposite what could be either xx, KQ or AKxx (if I'm slam-bound) and I don't often see a holding where this is all I care about (if I'm game-bound)
a) Is it me or the agreement that's unreasonable?
b) Assuming it's not me, how would you recommend playing such game tries? Note I've read the old thread where fred says what's he's playing with his partner, and I'd like something more straightforward (in other words, I really don't want to be responder in an auction where this just says "I have 4+ cards in the suit, what do you think?")

Thanks.

[Zelandakh]

The traditional way a HSGT is played is that with a minimum, Responder declines (by bidding 3M); with a maximum, Responder accepts. With a hand in-between, Responder looks at the overall combination of general strength and their holding in the game try suit and either declines, accepts, or makes a return game try accordingly. I suspect that you might find this kind of agreement easier to evaluate, especially if you also include a gadget to include two-way game tries, that is that Opener can choose to make a short suit game try with an appropriate hand instead of a HSGT.

[Antrax]

Yeah, we have a gadget, next step over 2M.

[ggwhiz]

I don't know if this is considered straight forward enough but once we have raised a major we use 2nt to ask responder to bid aces and kings (basically what you would accept a help suit on high cards) up the line. That's an addition to your basic hsgt.

Opener usually has a flatish hand or one that can't decide between asking in 2 suits (ie. minors Jxx and KJx). It can also be tougher for the defence to get a read on declarers hand when they ask without disclosing anything.

That or short suits you need something else to be really effective and I've found the above to be flexible control wise towards a slam or even being able to count 9 fast winners in notrump on rare occasion when 10 aren't there.

hehe, just looked at It's Your Call, #4 where this could find pard showing both round Kings after 2nt, 3♣ then 3♦, 3♥.

♠A K 8 7 6 5 2 ♥A 10 9 2 ♦— ♣A 2
West North East South
1♠ Pass 2♠
Pass ?

[Fluffy]

when partner makes a game try on a suit you need to understand that:

Trump honnors are the most important, they always play
Honnors in partner's suit are almost as important as trump honnors
Shortness and long suits outside those suits are of litle use (I mean doubletons, singletons are still useful, also very good suits can be helpful)
Queens and jacks outside partner's suits are probably useless
Shortness in partner's suit is more useful with extra trumps.


Now reevaluate your hand and see if you have a good hand or not.

[Siegmund]

Fluffy's post is excellent.

Especially when playing 2-way game tries I go a step further, and use the HSGTs specifically to ask partner to upgrade honours in my second suit, NOT to accept my game try with shortness in the suit I ask for help. A singleton is not what I want opposite my KQx.

Also bear in mind that the suits above your help-suit are ambiguous, while the suits below your help-suit you have deliberately bypassed. If it goes 1S-2S-3D, partner hasn't been told yet whether his HK and HQ are good or bad, but has been warned to devalue his CK and CQ.

[Antrax]

Thanks Siegmund, upgrading honors in the GT suit and downgrading honors in bypassed suits is what seemed the most logical to me, but I wanted some confirmation I didn't make up something awful. Fluffy's post was emailed verbatim to my partner

[Zelandakh]

This is basically the difference between natural game tries and HSGTs. KQx is fine as a natural game try suit but it is absolutely not a HSGT suit. HSGT means a suit where you need help in covering losers. It is not a suit where you have lots of slow honours.

[Antrax]

Oh. I hadn't realized there were three kinds. I thought it's either short suit or long suit.

[han]

It would help not to make game tries and slam tries with the same bids.

[Antrax]

Really? I thought making a game try and then raising to game when responder declines is a decent way of showing some slam interest. What's wrong with it?

[Zelandakh]

A good hand for accepting a game try is not necessarily a good hand for accepting a slam try. But most pairs do this anyway.

[Fluffy]

Antrax, on 2013-January-28, 09:31, said:

Really? I thought making a game try and then raising to game when responder declines is a decent way of showing some slam interest. What's wrong with it?

When you raise a declination to game it doesn't matter what you have, you won't play slam. You can also have fake suit game try whenre your bid is just missleading opps. You shouldn't use it often, but more or less the same frequency as real slam tries.

What matters the most is when partner accepts and raises to game, you have to go to the 5 level to investigate slam now.

[fred]

Antrax, on 2013-January-28, 09:31, said:

Really? I thought making a game try and then raising to game when responder declines is a decent way of showing some slam interest. What's wrong with it?

This is a very common attitude among less experienced players, but it is also very wrong IMO.

I wrote about this extensively in another thread on game tries and was surprised at the level of disagreement I received. Probably you or someone else can find it.

Bottom line is that when a game try is rejected and the other hand bids game anyway, the player that rejected the game try must pass. Don't even bother thinking about what your partner might be doing - just put down the dummy.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[gnasher]

Fluffy, on 2013-January-28, 12:33, said:

What matters the most is when partner accepts and raises to game, you have to go to the 5 level to investigate slam now.

The answer to that is for responder to accept by doing something less space-consuming. For example, I play 1♠-2♠;3♦-3NT as saying that responder wants to accept the game try, but leaving room for slam explorations if that's what opener has in mind. If you think you need 3NT as a natural bid, then use 1♠-2♠;3♦-4♣ instead.

[y66]

Excerpt from the old thread in which Fred disagrees with bluejak re: If I bid 1♥ 2♥ 3♦ 3♥ 4♥ I have made a slam try, so my partner is not constrained to pass.

fred, on 2010-May-31, 18:27, said:

I disagree.

I can think of four other possible explanations why a competent player might bid 3D and then 4H over 3H:

1) Opener was always going to game, but wanted to give responder a chance to bid 3NT if he was loaded in clubs and spades.

2) Opener was always going to game, but wanted to discourage a diamond opening lead.

3) Opener was always going to game, but he thought that his LHO might suspect 2) if he bid this way and he actually wanted to encourage a diamond lead.

4) Opener was always going to game, did not particularly care about the opening lead, but wanted to mislead the defenders about the distribution of his hand.

(I am not suggesting that anywhere near all competent players get involved in 2, 3, and 4, but 2 at least is very common in the real world - I suppose this means that 3 "should be" as well even though it probably isn't).

Note that "psychs" like 2, 3, and 4 are completely safe. 3D does not give responder rights to bid above 4H. For example, when the auction continues 3H-4H, responder must Pass 100% of the time.

That is why I don't buy the concept that 4H "converts a game try into a cuebid". 4H does nothing of the sort - it just says "I want to try to win 10 tricks with hearts as trump and I bid 3D because I thought it was smart at the time. Maybe I was always going to play in 4H and maybe I would have considered other contracts had you bid something other than 3H."

From that it follows (for me at least) that the notion of alerting 4H does not make any sense. 4H is as natural as a bid can possibly be - it is a pure and complete signoff, just like it sounds. 4H conveys no other meaning so there is nothing to alert.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Antrax]

fred, I read that old thread, frankly it's a bit too much for me. The main reason is that at the level I play, information leakage is simply not a problem - that is to say, it helps us more than it helps the opponents even if the opponents are good enough to use it.
I guess what I'm missing is how to bid powerhouse hands that didn't qualify for a 2♣ opening and heard a simple raise. Like, some 20-count 5-4-2-2 that was planning to jump shift and now heard a simple raise of the major.

[lycier]

The more common approach today is the HGST,but there are some differences with the partnership on it :

1- If your partnership plays classical help-suit game tries, usually a suit in which you hold three or four cards with a major honor or better, and then you hope your partner hold A, K, Q or better to cover your losers in the named suit.

2- If you play omnibus help-suit game tries that include making one with three, four or 5-small in the suit, and then you only hope your partner hold a void or singleton (with four trump)or two top card in the suit. Clearly, an Ace or a King-Queen combination is help.

3- Max Hardy ever said that standard HSGH is delivered by three card with a top card,its goal is to look for a top card for the help in the named suit,however a weak suit regard as a HSGT is playable ,also ridiculous.Its goal is only to hope a void /singleton or many honours concerntrated in the partner's suit for the help,this is on the contrary to original idea of HSGT!

Is this all right?

[Zelandakh]

Antrax, after you make a game try and partner decline with 3M, you have all of 3NT (if not natural) and the other 3 suits as ways of showing slam interest. I do not think you need 4M as well and making it a sign off gives you a great deal of leeway in bidding tactically. Notice that you also have a jump after 2M available on the previous round. You can define one of these routes to deal with the hands you think are a problem.

[Antrax]

Thanks, that's a good point. The jump after 2M is currently an autosplinter, which is why I asked about the semi-balanced powerhouse case.