[Zelandakh]

barsikb, on 2013-February-23, 08:22, said:

What would that be in this bidding sequence?

The sequence is P - (2♥) - X - (4♥); 4♠ - (P) - 5♥. What this 5♥ call means is to some extent dependant on other agreements, which is one reason I glossed over it earlier. In truth, what it really means is "anything I could not show via a different route". Let us look at some sample agreements to illustrate this. Let us say for starters that we want 4NT to be RKCB for spades. You do not have to play this but I think it is the most common agreement for B/I pairs. We can say that this handles most hands with a spade fit and no heart void that want to force to slam. It also seems clear to use a 5♠ bid as a slam invitation. And let's keep things simple and keep 5m and 6m bids natural. That leaves us 5NT, which many pairs play as "pick a slam" with 2 or 3 places to play, but has enough space to also include a spade grand slam try. Similarly, 6♥ is also a grand slam try in spades. Let us put all this together

P - (2♥) - X - (4♥); 4♠ - (P)
==
4NT = RKCB for spades
5m = natural
5♠ = slam try without a heart control
5NT = pick a slam, or a grand slam try in spades missing first round heart control (needs 1 cover card in hearts)
6m = natural
6♥ = grand slam try in spades with first round heart control (needs 1 cover card outside of hearts)
6♠ = natural (needs 3+ cover cards for grand slam)
5♥ = slam try in spades with a heart control; or grand slam try in a minor; or weak grand slam try in spades

Over 5♥, partner bids 5♠ to decline the slam try and then
5NT = grand slam force
6m = natural, grand try
6♥ = grand try in spades with first round heart control (needs 2 cover cards outside of hearts)
6♠ = grand try in spades without first round heart control (needs 2 cover cards including first round control of hearts)

To accept the slam try, partner can make a Paradox bid, that is bidding what they do not have. So
5NT = bad spades
6♣ = good spades, decline club try
6♦ = good spades, accept club try, decline diamond try
6♥ = good spades, accept club try, accept diamond try, <2 cover cards outside of hearts
6♠ = good spades, accept club try, accept diamond try, 2 cover cards outside of hearts but no first round heart control
6NT = accept any plus ♥A
7♣ = accept any without ♥A

As you can see here, agreements can get quite complex and this is why I thought it was better not to get involved. And this is just one set of possible agreements. I doubt any poster on the forums would agree with this set. It really is something that you need to sit down and discuss with a regular partner. Otherwise you just guess. Here, I think it is reasonable to guess that South has the ♠K for their 4♠ call and just bid 7♠.

Please note, I am not suggesting any N/B player play the above, nor that they are an optimal set of agreements. This is only for illustrative purposes.

[wyman]

mitsguy, on 2013-February-25, 00:16, said:

I thought that in order to make a positive response like 2♠, you needed at least 3 of the top 5 honors. Or is any 6 card suit ok?

Yes that is the usual agreement, though someone above makes a case that Kxxxxx should be good enough.

For what it's worth, my most regular partner and I have the agreement that 2s shows 2 of the top 3, and we've been playing for years, and while I suspect both of us would bid 2s anyway (considering it a white lie), I'm not 100% sure of that.

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I guess the logic is that if south doesn't have the K♠, you will almost certainly lose a spade trick, but probably won't lose anything else.

You might lose something else, namely a diamond, especially if the opponents lead a diamond at trick 1. But there are many ways to avoid the diamond loser (i listed a few in my last post), and it's also far from obvious that you'll even lose the spade king. Sometimes it's finessable, for example. And much of the time partner has it anyway.

[mitsguy]

PhilG007, on 2013-February-24, 11:00, said:

I would open 2S on the South hand. In my experience it pays to get in the bidding if I own the Spades.
Spades are the emperor of the suits,always keeping you one step ahead of the opposition.
I would suggest this bidding sequence:-

South North
2S 3C (forcing)
3D 4NT (Roman Keycard Blackwood for spades)
5D(1 or 4) 7S
Pass

Using simple Blackwood makes reaching the slam difficult as the trump King doesnt
count in the 4NT bid which essentially asks for Aces alone.

I thought that you weren't supposed to use Blackwood (RKCB or otherwise) with a void. When south shows 1 keycard, how does north know whether it is the very important K♠, or the mostly useless A♥?

[wyman]

mitsguy, on 2013-February-25, 11:49, said:

I thought that you weren't supposed to use Blackwood (RKCB or otherwise) with a void. When south shows 1 keycard, how does north know whether it is the very important K♠, or the mostly useless A♥?

Agreed, that is not a good auction. And I don't see a reason why 4N here would be RKC for spades anyway.

There are versions of blackwood/RKC that account for asker's voids. You'll see them referred to as "voidwood" or "exclusion RKC" but other than this vague reference to them, I will refrain from expanding on them in this thread.

[mitsguy]

Now I'll look at the competitive aspects of the auction, which I ignored before.

I thought that under the letter of the law, in order to open with a weak 2 bid, you needed either 2 of the top 3 honors, or 3 of the top 5 honors. South has neither, so technically he shouldn't open 2♠, and should pass.

West does have 3 of the top 5 heart honors, so west can open 2♥. Things will now go badly for North / South.

North, having too strong a hand for an overcall, will Double.

East, following the law of total tricks, will raise to 5♥, since they have 11 hearts between them.

South, with a weak hand, won't want to compete at such a high level, and will pass.

West will pass.

North now has a problem. Despite a strong hand, he can't show his club suit, since he'd have to go to the 6 level. For all he knows, South could be void in clubs. He wouldn't want to bid 5♠ either. Again, for all he knows, South could be void, and he could be doubled and beaten badly. He wouldn't want to make a penalty double either, since he is void in hearts, and knows that south has only 2 hearts, most likely weak ones.

What should North bid? Or, can we just say that west's pre-emptive opening and east's pre-emptive raise had the intended effect.

Even though south isn't really supposed to open 2♠, things go better if he does. West will probably pass. North will probably raise to 6♠, since south probably has the K♠, and north expects to lose only 1 diamond trick, not knowing that south has the K♦.

I'm thinking another option for north would be, rather than 6♠, to bid 2NT. Unfortunately, with only 8 HCP, south will probably retreat to 3♠; hopefully north will still raise to 6♠. However, if south cheats a little, and bids 3♦ in order to show the K♦, north can then confidently bid 7♠, knowing that they won't lose a trick.

It's interesting how North / South only reach a grand slam if they "cheat" a little: opening a Weak 2 with a suit that isn't technically strong enough, and showing a maximum weak 2 and a feature with only 8 HCP.

In an officially sanctioned game, would East / West be able to complain to the director that North / South used bids that technically showed other than what they had in their hands (South showed stronger spades than he had, and showed 9-11 HCP when he only had 8)?

[wyman]

mitsguy, on 2013-February-26, 21:07, said:

Now I'll look at the competitive aspects of the auction, which I ignored before.

I thought that under the letter of the law, in order to open with a weak 2 bid, you needed either 2 of the top 3 honors, or 3 of the top 5 honors. South has neither, so technically he shouldn't open 2♠, and should pass.

This is wildly false and is a matter of style. It's fairly UNcommon these days to encounter folks who maintain such rigid standards with respect to weak twos.

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West does have 3 of the top 5 heart honors, so west can open 2♥. Things will now go badly for North / South.

North, having too strong a hand for an overcall, will Double.

East, following the law of total tricks, will raise to 5♥, since they have 11 hearts between them.

South, with a weak hand, won't want to compete at such a high level, and will pass.

West will pass.

North now has a problem. Despite a strong hand, he can't show his club suit, since he'd have to go to the 6 level. For all he knows, South could be void in clubs. He wouldn't want to bid 5♠ either. Again, for all he knows, South could be void, and he could be doubled and beaten badly. He wouldn't want to make a penalty double either, since he is void in hearts, and knows that south has only 2 hearts, most likely weak ones.

North's double now is not penalty. It's extra values. North will absolutely double.

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What should North bid? Or, can we just say that west's pre-emptive opening and east's pre-emptive raise had the intended effect.

North will double, and if south chooses 5S (with 6 of them, he should), north will raise.

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Even though south isn't really supposed to open 2♠, things go better if he does. West will probably pass. North will probably raise to 6♠, since south probably has the K♠, and north expects to lose only 1 diamond trick, not knowing that south has the K♦.

I'm thinking another option for north would be, rather than 6♠, to bid 2NT. Unfortunately, with only 8 HCP, south will probably retreat to 3♠; hopefully north will still raise to 6♠. However, if south cheats a little, and bids 3♦ in order to show the K♦, north can then confidently bid 7♠, knowing that they won't lose a trick.

If 3D shows a diamond card in the NS system, this is indeed a nice approach. And I'd suggest that bidding 3D should not show a maximum anyway, just an A/K.

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It's interesting how North / South only reach a grand slam if they "cheat" a little: opening a Weak 2 with a suit that isn't technically strong enough, and showing a maximum weak 2 and a feature with only 8 HCP.

Again, most people are not this rigid with their preempts, so many pairs would bid the grand exactly as you suggest. Other pairs play that 2N after 2S asks for strength and suit quality. You can google the "Ogust" convention to see more.

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In an officially sanctioned game, would East / West be able to complain to the director that North / South used bids that technically showed other than what they had in their hands (South showed stronger spades than he had, and showed 9-11 HCP when he only had 8)?

No, the rules don't restrict your bidding in this way.

[mitsguy]

♠

wyman, on 2013-February-26, 21:31, said:

North's double now is not penalty. It's extra values. North will absolutely double.

I thought that a double of a game contract or higher was for penalty. How would you know that North's double was not for penalty in this case?

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North will double, and if south chooses 5S (with 6 of them, he should), north will raise.

How will South know that 5♠ is safe? For all South knows, North could be void in spades.

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If 3D shows a diamond card in the NS system, this is indeed a nice approach. And I'd suggest that bidding 3D should not show a maximum anyway, just an A/K.

I thought that in SAYC, with 5-8 HCP, you retreat to 3 of your original suit, 3♠ in this case. With 9-11 HCP, you can bid a new suit to show a feature (Ace or King), or 3NT without a feature. In this case, 3♦ would show 9-11 HCP and either the Ace or King of diamonds (obviously the King, since north has the Ace). But South has only 8 HCP, not 9.

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No, the rules don't restrict your bidding in this way.

I'm guessing if you claim to play Weak 2's, then it's ok, as long as 2♠ shows a weak hand with spades. I'm guessing you wouldn't get in trouble unless you completely lie, such as using 2♠ to show a strong hand with diamonds, or if you made a random bid just to be a jerk. Am I correct?

[Stephen Tu]

mitsguy, on 2013-February-27, 19:06, said:

I thought that a double of a game contract or higher was for penalty.

People played this way 40+ years ago, but nobody good does this anymore. They realized that pure penalty doubles come up too rarely (at least against sane opponents), and it's more important to be able to show general values (useful on both offense and defense) to allow partner to compete on offensive hands. Now, at very high levels, partner of the doubler will often have only a flat crappy hand without much offense, so he will pass these doubles for penalties quite frequently, but not with the hand in question.

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How would you know that North's double was not for penalty in this case?

Because his first double was takeout, so he can't all of a sudden have a penalty double. If your first double is takeout, your hand type can't change since it's still the same deal; subsequent doubles of the same suit when your side hasn't agreed on a suit yet just show that you are stronger than minimum; how much stronger depends on what level the opps have reached and whether partner has shown any strength.

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How will South know that 5♠ is safe? For all South knows, North could be void in spades.

One doesn't make takeout doubles with voids (or stiffs or doubletons for that matter) in the other major unless one has a death wish. If North has a strong single suited minor he could have jumped to 5c or 5d directly over 2h, or 4c/4d if *not* playing the popular "leaping michaels" convention (or other convention for these calls), or cue bid 3h looking for a heart stopper (the most common treatment, although a few experts like this as Michaels showing spades+minor). If North had both minors, he could have bid 4H or 4nt over 2h (4h stronger than 4nt), playing "std advanced" agreements.

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I thought that in SAYC, with 5-8 HCP, you retreat to 3 of your original suit, 3♠ in this case. With 9-11 HCP, you can bid a new suit to show a feature (Ace or King), or 3NT without a feature. In this case, 3♦ would show 9-11 HCP and either the Ace or King of diamonds (obviously the King, since north has the Ace). But South has only 8 HCP, not 9.

That's only a rough recommendation. At some point you have to learn that HCP are not all created equal, some 8 pt hands should be upgraded while some 9 HCP should be downgraded. Being 6-4 is a big upgrade factor vs. being 6322. Having the Q supported by the K and in your side suit is also a big plus. Those are enough to show the feature, your only minus factor is lack of interior spots in your suit.

But to me North bidding 2nt over South's 2s is silly. Not having agreements you aren't going to find out about the SK. Playing with someone random where advanced asking is impossible, I'd just bid 7s. He's going to have SK way more often than not. When he doesn't, a reasonable portion of the time you'll be able to cross DK, C8, or club ruff to hook for it. Or drop the SK as a last resort. That's plenty good odds for a grand, because you expect everyone to be in at least 6 if partner opens 2s.

With more advanced methods available, the choices are:
1. 5nt, grand slam force, if playing methods where partner can show one of the top 3 at the 6 level. Unfortunately different stds are in play, some play 6c is weakest response while others play 6s as weakest, and it's a rare bid so it often goes undiscussed. 7 showing 2 of top 3 is fairly well known, but showing lesser hands is just incredibly infrequent.
2. 5h, if played as exclusion RKC, asking key cards other than the HA.
3. 4nt, RKC, but you have to guess if partner has SK or HA (more likely SK), but at least you stay out of grand if he shows zero.

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I'm guessing if you claim to play Weak 2's, then it's ok, as long as 2♠ shows a weak hand with spades. I'm guessing you wouldn't get in trouble unless you completely lie, such as using 2♠ to show a strong hand with diamonds, or if you made a random bid just to be a jerk. Am I correct?

One can have whatever standards one wants for weak 2s. Some bid them on rather weak 5 cd suits! Just tendencies have to be disclosed to the opponents if asked. The very disciplined style has fallen out of favor for most, as it's assumed that giving the opponents a free run by passing makes life too easy on them. You give them more problems by opening these, occasionally you get a bad board on misfit hands where it gets passed out and you go down several because of your lack of spots, but the current CW is you get more good boards than bad ones.

Completely lying, also known as "psyching", is actually perfectly legal as long as your partner is also in the dark, when you don't have a concealed partnership agreement. Usually these random bids are more tactical though, trying something weird at favorable vul trying to pick off the opponent's game like by opening 1nt with a weak hand with clubs or something like that. Pure randomness just to be a jerk is considered unsporting. Actually opening 2s with a strong hand with diamonds, with partner thinking it's a weak 2 in spades, is just suicidal.

However there are a large # of bridge players, especially on BBO, that haven't been taught properly that psyching is legal, and get really bent out of shape when they encounter it. Plus there are some tourneys run that prohibit psyching. Plus partner may not have a sense of humor. So don't psych unless willing to take some heat for it, even when not warranted.

[mitsguy]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-February-27, 20:32, said:

People played this way 40+ years ago, but nobody good does this anymore. They realized that pure penalty doubles come up too rarely (at least against sane opponents), and it's more important to be able to show general values (useful on both offense and defense) to allow partner to compete on offensive hands. Now, at very high levels, partner of the doubler will often have only a flat crappy hand without much offense, so he will pass these doubles for penalties quite frequently, but not with the hand in question.


Because his first double was takeout, so he can't all of a sudden have a penalty double. If your first double is takeout, your hand type can't change since it's still the same deal; subsequent doubles of the same suit when your side hasn't agreed on a suit yet just show that you are stronger than minimum; how much stronger depends on what level the opps have reached and whether partner has shown any strength.


One doesn't make takeout doubles with voids (or stiffs or doubletons for that matter) in the other major unless one has a death wish.

I thought that you could make a takeout double for any hand too strong for a simple overcall, even if you have only 1 suit.

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If North has a strong single suited minor he could have jumped to 5c or 5d directly over 2h, or 4c/4d if *not* playing the popular "leaping michaels" convention (or other convention for these calls), or cue bid 3h looking for a heart stopper (the most common treatment, although a few experts like this as Michaels showing spades+minor). If North had both minors, he could have bid 4H or 4nt over 2h (4h stronger than 4nt), playing "std advanced" agreements.

Isn't this supposed to be the Novice / Beginner Forum?

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But to me North bidding 2nt over South's 2s is silly. Not having agreements you aren't going to find out about the SK. Playing with someone random where advanced asking is impossible, I'd just bid 7s. He's going to have SK way more often than not. When he doesn't, a reasonable portion of the time you'll be able to cross DK, C8, or club ruff to hook for it. Or drop the SK as a last resort. That's plenty good odds for a grand, because you expect everyone to be in at least 6 if partner opens 2s.

What I was thinking was, North has at most 1 loser (a diamond), assuming South has the K♠, which he probably does if he opened 2♠. But if South also has the K♦, which he does, North / South won't lose any diamond tricks, so they can make 7♠ instead of just 6♠. The only way to find out if South has the K♦ is to ask. If instead South bids 3♥ (showing a mostly useless A or K of hearts), or 3♠ (showing a weak hand), or 3NT (showing a strong hand but no outside A or K), then you know to only bid 6♠.

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With more advanced methods available, the choices are:
1. 5nt, grand slam force, if playing methods where partner can show one of the top 3 at the 6 level. Unfortunately different stds are in play, some play 6c is weakest response while others play 6s as weakest, and it's a rare bid so it often goes undiscussed. 7 showing 2 of top 3 is fairly well known, but showing lesser hands is just incredibly infrequent.
2. 5h, if played as exclusion RKC, asking key cards other than the HA.
3. 4nt, RKC, but you have to guess if partner has SK or HA (more likely SK), but at least you stay out of grand if he shows zero.

But none of those will show whether or not South has the K♦, which is important. Again, you can assume that he has the K♠, since you know that you have the A, Q, and 10, and it is not likely that he would have opened 2♠ with only the J♠.

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Completely lying, also known as "psyching", is actually perfectly legal as long as your partner is also in the dark, when you don't have a concealed partnership agreement. Usually these random bids are more tactical though, trying something weird at favorable vul trying to pick off the opponent's game like by opening 1nt with a weak hand with clubs or something like that. Pure randomness just to be a jerk is considered unsporting. Actually opening 2s with a strong hand with diamonds, with partner thinking it's a weak 2 in spades, is just suicidal.

However there are a large # of bridge players, especially on BBO, that haven't been taught properly that psyching is legal, and get really bent out of shape when they encounter it. Plus there are some tourneys run that prohibit psyching. Plus partner may not have a sense of humor. So don't psych unless willing to take some heat for it, even when not warranted.

I'm confused. There was another thread where someone said that he got in trouble for overcalling 1♦ over 1♣ without an appropriate hand. But you are saying that's legal? I'm confused.

I'm guessing what you mean is this: If you claim to play Weak 2's, but every time you have a strong hand with diamonds open 2♠, and your partner knows that, then that is illegal. But if you usually play Weak 2's, but decide, in order to ruin an opponent's chance of finding the right contract, to open 2♠ even though you have a strong hand with diamonds, and are willing to go down, then that is legal. I'm also guessing that if, for example, every time your opponents bid Blackwood you bid 6♠ so that they miss their slam, then that would be illegal. But if you have an agreement and disclose it that a 6♠ overcall over opponent's Blackwood incidates a certain type of hand (maybe a hand where you'd be willing to sacrifice in spades), then it is legal to make that bid, even if you don't actually hold an appropriate hand. Am I correct?

[Stephen Tu]

mitsguy, on 2013-February-27, 22:44, said:

I thought that you could make a takeout double for any hand too strong for a simple overcall, even if you have only 1 suit.

Definitely not over a preempt, because over preempts your jump overcalls are *strong* not weak. There's a principle that usually applies that if RHO's action is strong, your jump is weak, (e.g. your jump overcall of a 1 bid is weak), but if RHO's bid is weak (preempt opening), a jump by you is strong. When you have ways of showing a strong one-suiter, it's better to do that rather than the auction going 2h-x-4h-4s-p-? and you don't know if partner bid it based on your presumed length or if he himself has a whole lot of spades. If the auction had gone 2h-3h-4h-4s (3H = strong one suiter looking for stopper) or 2h-4c-4h-4s or 2h-3nt-4h-4s (3nt = strong one suiter with stopper; strong balanced hands overcall 2nt or double then bid 3nt) you are in much better shape, you know he isn't counting on you having 3+ spades.

Takeout double when too strong for overcall is a tool of last resort, you usually do it only after 1 bids or with more balanced hands with at least 3 cds in unbid majors, and you try really hard not to do it with shortness in an unbid suit that partner can outbid you with. Doubling with a strong spade overcall is a lot safer than doubling with a strong diamond overcall, because you can correct partner's bids to spades on the same level. But if partner is coming with spades, you really need a moose to move since you are increasing the level as well. When you are short in the unbid major and partner bidding it at a high level after opp's jump raise is going to be problematic, you should increase your simple overcall range, bidding even on hands that are nominally too strong, because it's safer and there is a reasonably high probability that either the opponents or partner will keep the auction alive for you by bidding/showing the missing major in some way. Doubling with a strong one-suiter is mainly in fear that if you just overcall it will get all passed out while missing game; with spades this is more likely than if you are short in spades. Obviously there is some point where you are so strong you feel you must double, but don't double with 18 count and stiff spade when opps opened hearts just because your overcall range is nominally topped out at 17. And often there are alternatives available, perhaps an unusual NT call, perhaps a jump cue.

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Isn't this supposed to be the Novice / Beginner Forum?

Yeah but you are asking questions about a hand types that are kind of above that level, and in any case at some point novice/beginners have to learn what those bids they don't employ are supposed to mean, to handle these otherwise unbiddable hands.

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But none of those will show whether or not South has the K♦, which is important.

Visualize how the play goes. The K of diamonds is irrelevant. North has 7 club tricks! Presumably South has 6 spade tricks. North can win the first diamond or ruff a heart lead. Then trumps are drawn ending in dummy. Any remaining losing diamonds or hearts can then be pitched on clubs, no matter how many red cards south has. You have 6 spades, 7 clubs, diamond ace, that's 14 tricks before even any heart ruffs. Alternatively, you can think of North's diamond loser being pitched on South's fifth or sixth trump.

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I'm confused. There was another thread where someone said that he got in trouble for overcalling 1♦ over 1♣ without an appropriate hand. But you are saying that's legal? I'm confused.

There's a difference between "legal trouble", breaking the laws of bridge and being subject to rectification by the director, misbidding and getting into "bad score" trouble because you didn't have what partner thought you had, and deliberately psyching.

The guy thought it was normal to bid 1d with normal 4432 takeout double hands over 1c. That's just a misbid; if his partner raised diamonds on 3cds and they played some stupid 3-3 fit and went down a lot, that's all perfectly legal, no penalty or adjustment, but then he would have probably gotten a bad bridge result. Same if partner led diamonds expecting a better suit but would have led something more effective otherwise. So trouble, but not in the legal sense.

Now if he and his partner had the *agreement* that 1d is this hand (and not the normal usu 5+ diamonds), they are required to disclose this to the opponents that they are playing something unusual. If the opps played or defended the hand, but got a bad result because they were playing him for 5+ diamonds, they'd be entitled to an adjustment because they weren't informed. Also under some rule sets in some countries it might be deemed a disallowed convention.

But if he *psyched* 1d, deliberately deceiving both opps and partner, that's perfectly legal. The opps don't need to be informed because it's not a *partnership* agreement. But if he does this habitually with the same partner, it can become an *implied partnership agreement* subject to disclosure. Psyches = intentional misbids are fine if partner isn't in on it.

So:
- opponents must be informed about unusual *partnership agreements*, unusual meanings or strength ranges of bids.
- but you are allowed to lie about your hand if partner also will be surprised

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I'm guessing what you mean is this: If you claim to play Weak 2's, but every time you have a strong hand with diamonds open 2♠, and your partner knows that, then that is illegal.

It's illegal if you don't disclose it. It's also probably an illegal convention, because 2s = weak 2 spades or strong diamonds probably isn't on allowed convention charts in most places. It's also probably a self-destructive convention, because here you are opening 2s, partner passes it, but you were cold for 3nt or 5d. A better example would be playing 2s as a club preempt without telling the opps, but partner knows.

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But if you usually play Weak 2's, but decide, in order to ruin an opponent's chance of finding the right contract, to open 2♠ even though you have a strong hand with diamonds, and are willing to go down, then that is legal.

Yes, if you do it without partner's knowledge. But again this particular example is likely self-defeating.

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I'm also guessing that if, for example, every time your opponents bid Blackwood you bid 6♠ so that they miss their slam, then that would be illegal.

There are certain destructive conventions, like say an automatic 1s any shape/strength overcall over strong 1c, that have been barred by authorities. But I don't think this 6♠ has been barred since it's mostly suicidal given the adjustment of non-vul doubled undertricks some years back. A few decades ago nv undertricks were 200 max, so you could make some rather ridiculous sacs esp. over grands, but they legislated that away because people like to bid and make slams. Now after the first 3 undertricks they are 300 each so this tactic is a lot less likely to bear fruit.

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But if you have an agreement and disclose it that a 6♠ overcall over opponent's Blackwood incidates a certain type of hand (maybe a hand where you'd be willing to sacrifice in spades), then it is legal to make that bid, even if you don't actually hold an appropriate hand. Am I correct?

Sure.

[mitsguy]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-February-28, 00:38, said:

Definitely not over a preempt, because over preempts your jump overcalls are *strong* not weak. There's a principle that usually applies that if RHO's action is strong, your jump is weak, (e.g. your jump overcall of a 1 bid is weak), but if RHO's bid is weak (preempt opening), a jump by you is strong. When you have ways of showing a strong one-suiter, it's better to do that rather than the auction going 2h-x-4h-4s-p-? and you don't know if partner bid it based on your presumed length or if he himself has a whole lot of spades. If the auction had gone 2h-3h-4h-4s (3H = strong one suiter looking for stopper) or 2h-4c-4h-4s or 2h-3nt-4h-4s (3nt = strong one suiter with stopper; strong balanced hands overcall 2nt or double then bid 3nt) you are in much better shape, you know he isn't counting on you having 3+ spades.

I did not know that. That makes sense, since it makes no sense to pre-empt over a pre-empt anyway. Even though North has 7 clubs and only 4 spades and 2 diamonds, I'm guessing you say North should double, since a jump overcall to 4♣ would bypass 3NT. Even over a takeout double, it is unlikely that South would jump to 5♦.

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Takeout double when too strong for overcall is a tool of last resort, you usually do it only after 1 bids or with more balanced hands with at least 3 cds in unbid majors, and you try really hard not to do it with shortness in an unbid suit that partner can outbid you with. Doubling with a strong spade overcall is a lot safer than doubling with a strong diamond overcall, because you can correct partner's bids to spades on the same level.

Yes, as I said South is not likely to jump to 5♦ no matter what hand he has.

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Yeah but you are asking questions about a hand types that are kind of above that level, and in any case at some point novice/beginners have to learn what those bids they don't employ are supposed to mean, to handle these otherwise unbiddable hands.

All of my questions were in response to this hand, which was posted on the Novice / Beginner forum.