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preempts voids weak 2s & higher preempts

#1 User is offline   LoneMonad 

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Posted 2013-March-05, 17:56

old school says no voids
i have heard new concepts that include voids
please comment on this controversy
reasons not to include voids
reasons to include them
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#2 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2013-March-05, 18:04

"old school says no voids"
Does it? How curious.I don't think it does. How else can a pre emptor make a penalty x for an unusual lead, and there are many examples of these. I can certainly have a void when I pre empt.
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#3 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2013-March-05, 18:44

I didn't know it was a controversy. It has never occurred to me not to preempt with the right 7-3-3, 6-4-3, 7-4-2, etc at the appropriate level.

We have rules about outside honor cards vs trump quality in early position, but not about voids.
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#4 User is offline   chasetb 

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Posted 2013-March-05, 21:00

The only time there's even remotely a controversy is with a hand like Qxxx KQxxxx xxx --- , when we might be better off in Spades than Hearts. Otherwise, a void can make me want to be more aggressive on a pre-empt.
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#5 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2013-March-05, 21:17

These days preempting with a flaw is common, and a void is considered a flaw rather than a contraindication. I personally consider it a big enough flaw that I will generally choose not to open a weak two if I have a void, but I don't think that other styles are ridiculous or even bad.

EDIT: The hand above has an additional flaw, a 4-card spade suit, and I would strongly recommend against opening 2 in 1st or 2nd.
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#6 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2013-March-05, 22:50

View Postthe hog, on 2013-March-05, 18:04, said:

"old school says no voids"
Does it? How curious.I don't think it does. How else can a pre emptor make a penalty x for an unusual lead, and there are many examples of these. I can certainly have a void when I pre empt.


Larry Cohen addresses the idea of opening a weak 2 with a void, so it's something I suspect that people have brought up before. You're mental not to do it imho. Sometimes it can be a reason to do it. Are you seriously not going to open this 2S (heck, I'd consider 3S) third in at G vs R:

S: KJT987
H: -
D: Q982
C: 864
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#7 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2013-March-05, 23:04

View PostCthulhu D, on 2013-March-05, 22:50, said:

third in at G vs R:


Of course in this position all discipline goes out the window.
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#8 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2013-March-05, 23:33

View PostVampyr, on 2013-March-05, 23:04, said:

Of course in this position all discipline goes out the window.



Yup - though as the opponents almost certainly had an 8 card heart fit and are cold for game atleast, I think it's correct to bid at any vulnerability.
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#9 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2013-March-05, 23:37

View PostCthulhu D, on 2013-March-05, 23:33, said:

Yup - though as the opponents almost certainly had an 8 card heart fit and are cold for game atleast, I think it's correct to bid at any vulnerability.


When I do this it's partner who has all the hearts :)
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#10 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2013-March-05, 23:59

When I am 6-4-4 the rules go out the window at any position or colors.
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#11 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2013-March-09, 10:53

There is a pretty firm rule against not having two defensive tricks when you preempt. Having little or no defense is your guarantee that your -800s are better than losing a slam, your -500s are better than losing a game, etc.

The void is a hazard, in that if you preempt on a 7330, and the opponents play in your 3-card suit, your hand may unexpectedly produce a defensive ruff -- which isn't a bad thing if your opponents overbid... but is a very bad thing if you are in a contract where both sides are not making, and you are left holding the short end of the stick. Often partner will sacrifice when one trick from your hand isn't enough to beat the opponents, and these sacrifices will be phantoms when you had a bonus ruff coming.

I have never shied away from 3-level and higher preempts with a void - even with one ace and a void, taking my chances I don't have 2 defensive tricks - but I and many others learned never to make a weak two with a void, which had more to do with having the constructive value of your hand confined to a modest range discoverable by your partner.
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#12 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2013-March-10, 13:03

You rarely have the perfect hand for a pre-empt, and traditional advice, as I understand it, was not to pre-empt if your hand had a number of flaws i.e. was too far from the "perfect" hand. A void was one such flaw, weak spot cards was another, too much strength outside the suit versus inside the suit was a third and so on.
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#13 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2013-March-10, 15:28

I don't normally open weak 2s with voids, because I open at the 3 level.
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#14 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2013-March-10, 15:40

A void is a flaw to me, only when partner is the one void in my suit.
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#15 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2013-March-12, 09:08

The higher the preempt, the longer your suit will be, and the more chance you have of holding a void. If you like to pass an 8-3-2-0 be my guest, but I would just preempt...

At 2-level it's a bit different because holding a void means holding a side 4 card suit and a side 3 card suit, 2 potential alternative strains to play. Nevertheless I usually open them anyway, unless with a side 4 card Major.
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#16 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2013-March-12, 09:16

I wonder how much "do as I say, not as I do" there is among bridge authors. Is it just because you necessarily need a different strategy when playing in the Vanderbilt or Bermuda Bowl than when playing against LOLs at the club?

#17 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2013-March-12, 09:25

View Postbarmar, on 2013-March-12, 09:16, said:

I wonder how much "do as I say, not as I do" there is among bridge authors. Is it just because you necessarily need a different strategy when playing in the Vanderbilt or Bermuda Bowl than when playing against LOLs at the club?


Most bridge authors have never played in the Bermuda Bowl. :(
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#18 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2013-March-12, 15:35

View PostPhilKing, on 2013-March-12, 09:25, said:

Most bridge authors have never played in the Bermuda Bowl. :(

When I look at my bridge bookshelf, I see books by Mike Lawrence, Larry Cohen, Marty Bergen, Ron Anderson, Eric Rodwell, and Jeff Rubens. I don't know how many of them have played specifically in the BB, but they play in many comparable tournaments.

#19 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2013-March-12, 16:05

View Postbarmar, on 2013-March-12, 15:35, said:

When I look at my bridge bookshelf, I see books by Mike Lawrence, Larry Cohen, Marty Bergen, Ron Anderson, Eric Rodwell, and Jeff Rubens. I don't know how many of them have played specifically in the BB, but they play in many comparable tournaments.


Bird, Smith, Segal, Hardy, Rexford, King ....
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#20 User is offline   Lord Molyb 

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Posted 2013-March-12, 18:30

View PostCthulhu D, on 2013-March-05, 22:50, said:

Larry Cohen addresses the idea of opening a weak 2 with a void, so it's something I suspect that people have brought up before. You're mental not to do it imho. Sometimes it can be a reason to do it. Are you seriously not going to open this 2S (heck, I'd consider 3S) third in at G vs R:

S: KJT987
H: -
D: Q987
C: 8642

I'd call the director.
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