[pran]

 jallerton, on 2013-July-26, 15:04, said:

Anybody who believes that they have never come across an instance of someone trying to deliberately break the Laws/Regulations is naive.

"Thank you" for your accusation.

But I don't think that I am naive, it is usually not difficult to "diagnose" what is really going on. And a player who tries a sting like that will pretty soon find himself holding a reputation he could do better without.

[barmar]

 jallerton, on 2013-July-26, 15:04, said:

I agree with Nigel. Anybody who believes that they have never come across an instance of someone trying to deliberately break the Laws/Regulations is naive.

I won't say never. A number of years ago I was playing in a KO at an NABC where our teammates noticed that the opponents seemed to be sending signals by the way they held the card when playing it (horizontally or vertically). That's out-and-out cheating. They reported it to a director, and I believe they started monitoring that pair covertly to get more evidence.

There are some things that are borderline. If declarer plays/calls a card before they notice what the defender played, and then claims that the card was inadvertent so they should be allowed to change it, that's wrong. I don't think they're intentionally trying to cheat, they're rationalizing.

[gnasher]

I didn't say "never" either.

[mycroft]

I can think of at least three players who have abused the Laws, in ways that they "should have known" better, to gain, and did it deliberately. Without trying hard.

And then there are the several people whose attitude toward the table was the reason all the ZT cards and posters were created, and they still do it, and "everybody" knows they do it, and it does gain by putting others off their game, and they're still playing, mumble years later. Witness the pair that blindsided us at our "away tournament": when explaining that apart from one pair, who <did all kinds of crazy, illegal, and imProper stuff at our table, and got very indignant when we called them on it>, everyone has been very pleasant and glad to have us tourists, even with our crazy bidding, they knew *exactly* who it was. I bet every bridge community has such a player/pair. And yet they still get to play...

Yes, pran, they get an unenviable reputation. But that's *all* they get, besides the matchpoints and made contracts from the irritated opponents. For them, it's an adequate trade.

[pran]

 mycroft, on 2013-July-29, 17:21, said:

I can think of at least three players who have abused the Laws, in ways that they "should have known" better, to gain, and did it deliberately. Without trying hard.

And then there are the several people whose attitude toward the table was the reason all the ZT cards and posters were created, and they still do it, and "everybody" knows they do it, and it does gain by putting others off their game, and they're still playing, mumble years later. Witness the pair that blindsided us at our "away tournament": when explaining that apart from one pair, who <did all kinds of crazy, illegal, and imProper stuff at our table, and got very indignant when we called them on it>, everyone has been very pleasant and glad to have us tourists, even with our crazy bidding, they knew *exactly* who it was. I bet every bridge community has such a player/pair. And yet they still get to play...

Yes, pran, they get an unenviable reputation. But that's *all* they get, besides the matchpoints and made contracts from the irritated opponents. For them, it's an adequate trade.

And how do you think "we" as TD use such reputation? They find themselves ruled against.

[mycroft]

...when the opponents notice, and complain, and we see it. And frequently, it's a "heads I win, tails I break even" situation even then. Those are the two objections the others in this thread have.

And I don't disagree with them (although *sometimes* it's "tails I do worse, because the TDs won't let me play like I can"...and then they gripe to all their buddies about the idiot TDs who "force" players to be stupid).

[Fluffy]

This heads I win, tails I break even is the problem, and not only in bridge, you can see it on real life too, when politicians or rich people steal nowdays, at least in my country, either the get away with it, or if caught they will just give it back... well the part that can be proven the stole, the other is for them.

A woman was caught on the local club years ago when she forgot her scoring sheet at one table, director picked it up and realized she had only written down scores for hands she hadn't played yet.

After a 2 month ban, she had waiting list of people wanting to partner her.

She also has a very funny story playing golf, after arriving on the green, and looking for her ball for several minutes she finally found it around brushes with a clear path towards the green. Too bad when a match partner finished the hole later he found 2 balls on the hole, one of them was the original cheater's ball, who had made a hole in one, and was handed 6 month ban to celebrate it.

[barmar]

Yep, that's life. Cheaters sometimes do prosper, and some people actually make a living through crime.

If we had extremely harsh punishments for even minor infractions, that would probably serve as a deterrent for most people. But it would feel unfair when the punishment is incurred.

[Fluffy]

but scaling the punishment could work, obviously it would never apply for many reasons, but if all penalties even revokes had to be submited to NBO for a record...