[Flem72]

This is America. They get a trial. But I can't help but think: the Feds should let them go for a spring afternoon stroll in Southie.

I guess I must be a bad person.

[the hog]

So what happened to "Innocent until proven guilty"?

[Flem72]

the hog, on 2013-April-18, 18:45, said:

So what happened to "Innocent until proven guilty"?

The way things are, no prosecutor releases these photos labeling the subjects as "suspects" unless the prosecutor is 99% sure they are the guys. Remember the Atlanta bombing. So, yes, they are IUPG, and as I said, this is America and they will get a trial.

I merely expose another moral viewpoint: 'In any conflict, the rules of engagement are established by the least principled participant.'

[Cyberyeti]

Flem72, on 2013-April-18, 18:53, said:

The way things are, no prosecutor releases these photos labeling the subjects as "suspects" unless the prosecutor is 99% sure they are the guys. Remember the Atlanta bombing. So, yes, they are IUPG, and as I said, this is America and they will get a trial.

I merely expose another moral viewpoint: 'In any conflict, the rules of engagement are established by the least principled participant.'

This is America, they'll have guns, the police will have guns, the chance of them having a trial is pretty small, one is dead already.

[hrothgar]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-April-19, 02:52, said:

This is America, they'll have guns, the police will have guns, the chance of them having a trial is pretty small, one is dead already.

Latest from Boston

One suspect is dead (Killed during a car chase that supposedly involved bombs being thrown and left an MIT police officer dead)
The other is still at large

Much of Boston and Cambridge are locked down.
(For example, commuter rail and subways are close, as is MIT)

Akamai closed its Cambridge offices today (we're located in the midst of the craziness)
I got a call from Akamai while I was sitting out on the train tracks

I was some surprised regarding how quickly this all came together. Its an interesting commentary regarding the pros and cons of living in a surveillance state.

[kenberg]

Edit: I will leave the comments below since I said them, but I see that there were other deaths as well. It's no laughing matter and I apologize for the flippancy. We all are in debt to everyone involved in the discovery and capture, alive or otherwise, of the suspects.

the hog, on 2013-April-18, 18:45, said:

So what happened to "Innocent until proven guilty"?

I recall an old Carole King song, Smackwater Jack:

The account of the capture wasn't in the paper
But you know they hanged old Smack right there, instead of later.

We set up our laws, most especially including innocent until proven guilty, to keep our instincts in check. And of course we should follow the law. Definitely. We should. Definitely.

[Flem72]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-April-19, 02:52, said:

This is America, they'll have guns, the police will have guns, the chance of them having a trial is pretty small, one is dead already.

Just awakened. Those boys seem to have been busy all night -- more innocents dead -- just establishing the rules of engagement, as it were.

[Trinidad]

Flem72, on 2013-April-18, 18:53, said:

The way things are, no prosecutor releases these photos labeling the subjects as "suspects" unless the prosecutor is 99% sure they are the guys. Remember the Atlanta bombing. So, yes, they are IUPG, and as I said, this is America and they will get a trial.

I merely expose another moral viewpoint: 'In any conflict, the rules of engagement are established by the least principled participant.'

I do remember the Atlanta bombing. The guy they arrested and who everybody was certain was guilty, turned out to be innocent.

Rik

[barmar]

hrothgar, on 2013-April-19, 04:44, said:

Latest from Boston

One suspect is dead (Killed during a car chase that supposedly involved bombs being thrown and left an MIT police officer dead)

Actually, the MIT Police officer was shot and killed on the MIT campus, before the car chase. A Transit Police officer was injured during a firefight in Watertown, the last I heard is that he's expected to recover after a large bullet was removed from his leg.

Quote

Akamai closed its Cambridge offices today (we're located in the midst of the craziness)
I got a call from Akamai while I was sitting out on the train tracks

Indeed, the Akamai office is a 5-minute walk from where the MIT officer was shot. Although by this morning most of the craziness had migrated to Watertown, about 5 miles away.

Quote

I was some surprised regarding how quickly this all came together. Its an interesting commentary regarding the pros and cons of living in a surveillance state.

Does people voluntarily sending in their cellphone videos count as a "surveillance state"? Other than traffic cameras that catch you running a red light or going through a tollbooth without paying, do we have any government surveillance cameras?

[PassedOut]

Trinidad, on 2013-April-19, 09:57, said:

I do remember the Atlanta bombing. The guy they arrested and who everybody was certain was guilty, turned out to be innocent.

Rik

I was there, and Richard Jewell was not arrested for the bombing -- the FBI merely destroyed a part of his life.

Richard Jewell, 44, Hero of Atlanta Attack, Dies

Quote

The heavy-set Mr. Jewell, with a country drawl and a deferential manner, became an instant celebrity after a bomb exploded in Centennial Olympic Park in Atlanta in the early hours of July 27, 1996, at the midpoint of the Summer Games. The explosion, which propelled hundreds of nails through the darkness, killed one woman, injured 111 people and changed the mood of the Olympiad.

Only minutes earlier, Mr. Jewell, who was working a temporary job as a guard, had spotted the abandoned green knapsack that contained the bomb, called it to the attention of the police, and started moving visitors away from the area. He was praised for the quick thinking that presumably saved lives.

But three days later, he found himself identified in an article in The Atlanta Journal as the focus of police attention, leading to several searches of his apartment and surveillance by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and by reporters who set upon him, he would later say, “like piranha on a bleeding cow.”

The investigation by local, state and federal law enforcement officers lasted until late October 1996 and included a number of bungled tactics, including an F.B.I. agent’s effort to question Mr. Jewell on camera under the pretense of making a training film.

In October 1996, when it became obvious that Mr. Jewell had not been involved in the bombing, the Justice Department formally cleared him.

[Trinidad]

PassedOut, on 2013-April-19, 10:43, said:

I was there, and Richard Jewell was not arrested for the bombing -- the FBI merely destroyed a part of his life.

Thanks for the info.

I recounted from what I remembered. So, he was not arrested, but considered all around to be guilty. I think it is a good idea to keep Atlanta in mind to remember that suspects are not perpetrators until they are found guilty.

Rik

[barmar]

The situation last night around Boston is obviously different. The brothers shot a cop, carjacked someone, started a carchase, and threw explosives at officers. They're the same people who were caught on camera leaving a backpack at the site of the bombing on Monday -- what's the chance that they're not the perpetrators?

The only question is whether there are others involved that we don't yet know of.

But they weren't able to convict OJ, so any result is possible.

[kenberg]

Of course we follow the law. This means that if we are called as jurors we render our verdict based on the evidence that is presented in the court. It does not mean that we have to, while not on the jury, treat it as the least bit likely that the brothers didn't do it. But we follow the law. This includes a police right to use deadly force in situations where an armed suspect resists arrest. Police, like anyone else, can be in error. That's reason enough to insist that they behave within the law. Still, the guys did it. If I am a cop at the scene I arrest them, alive if possible, and turn them over for trial. Sitting here, I conclude that they did it. I trust the law to get it right if I am wrong. Mostly, it does. I am completely at ease with my emotional reaction being at odds with what the law requires. That's why cops get the training they get.

[barmar]

It's incredibly surreal to be in the Boston area in the middle of this, seeing it play out in real time. It feels like I'm in an episode of CSI.

[ArtK78]

barmar, on 2013-April-19, 12:45, said:

It's incredibly surreal to be in the Boston area in the middle of this, seeing it play out in real time. It feels like I'm in an episode of CSI.

Let me know if you hear any theme music playing in the background.

(Sorry - is it wrong to inject a little levity into this situation? It is a truly surreal scene).

[kenberg]

ArtK78, on 2013-April-19, 13:20, said:

Let me know if you hear any theme music playing in the background.

(Sorry - is it wrong to inject a little levity into this situation? It is a truly surreal scene).

Imo, no it is not wrong. It does not disrespect the suffering of those directly affected. But I had the same queasy feeling above about my own somewhat flippant reference above..

And from what I am seeing, surreal seems to be the right word.

We will resume our lives and play bridge and go to movies. As will the people of Boston. But our hearts go out to them.

[onoway]

Ages ago was living in Chicago and looking out the kitchen window into the back yard. A man came pounding down the alley, vaulted the fence, dashed alongside the house onto the front walk and disappeared down the street. A moment later two policemen followed him, running for all they were worth. Since nobody tried to come into the house it was all sort of entertaining. We never did find out what it was all about.

The situation in Boston is very different though.

[Rain]

Who else lives in the area? Hrothgar, Barry, Winkle/me?

Barry pretty much summed up all I wanted to say about the possibility that they are innocents and "framed" like their aunt was claiming. If he's an innocent he would also have said something by now, call 911 himself and surrender, whatever. He must have more experienced masterminds guiding him - how can a 19 yo who grew up in a mostly normal USA neighbourhood know how to run and evade capture for so long?

If this was "24" CTU would be listening in on his phone conversations with his masterminds.

I also read this. http://patrick.net/forum/?p=511

[ggwhiz]

I'm having a hard time with the 24 hour news cycle.

Sticking a microphone in the face of close relatives and asking leading questions is cruel.

These people who have done nothing wrong are probably dealing with a couple of kids who have essentially committed suicide in the worst possible way, taking innocents with them.

No surprise if they are greiving/in denial or a state that demands, leave me alone.

[billw55]

Rain, on 2013-April-19, 14:22, said:

He must have more experienced masterminds guiding him - how can a 19 yo who grew up in a mostly normal USA neighbourhood know how to run and evade capture for so long?

My guess is he has gone to ground, hiding somewhere not moving. I imagine it would be hard to find someone in such a case. Maybe dogs could be used, but how would they know what trail/scent to follow? He can't sit still forever, eventually he will starve himself out, but how long can such a large city remain locked down?