[plum_tree]

Over a 15-17 HCP 1NT range, and playing 4 suit transfers-
1. What do I gain/advantages?
2. What do I lose/disadvantages?
And finally,
3. Do you recommend it?

[TylerE]

1. Much improved bidding when responder has a minor suit.

2. Practically nothing, except 1N-2♣-2M-2N is ambiguous as to wether or not the other major is held.

3. 100% absolutely.

[Vampyr]

 plum_tree, on 2013-May-30, 11:00, said:

Over a 15-17 HCP 1NT range, and playing 4 suit transfers-
1. What do I gain/advantages?
2. What do I lose/disadvantages?
And finally,
3. Do you recommend it?

The losses, to be perfectly honest, are not much. You lose other uses for 2♠ (eg Baron, minor-suit Stayman) and 2NT (natural invitational). What you gain is the ability to easily show minor-suit hands low and you can handle weak and slam-interested hands; plus you will generally get to your games when you are invitational if partner shows the positive acceptance. Also you free up your 3-minor bids for other uses (I personally use 3♣ as 5-card Stayman and 3♦ as a GF hand with 5-5 in the minors.)

You must remember that 1NT-2♣-2♥-2♠ is invitational with four spades, but this is not hard. And of course your balanced invitations must start with Stayman.

I recommend it.

[Vampyr]

 TylerE, on 2013-May-30, 11:08, said:

2. Practically nothing, except 1N-2♣-2M-2N is ambiguous as to wether or not the other major is held.

Crossed this post -- the above is only true if opener bids 2♠, but there is in any case no heart fit so long as opener bids hearts with 4 cards in both majors.

[awm]

Of course it depends on your alternative uses for these bids...

The main disadvantage is the loss of natural 2nt. This means when you have a flat invite opponents get more info to help defend and more bids to double for the lead. It can make finding a spade fit awkward since 1nt-2c-2h-2nt doesn't guarantee four spades (you can use 2s to "fix" this but it creates other issues).

[Vampyr]

 awm, on 2013-May-30, 11:42, said:

It can make finding a spade fit awkward since 1nt-2c-2h-2nt doesn't guarantee four spades (you can use 2s to "fix" this but it creates other issues).

Does it? What are they?

[eagles123]

 awm, on 2013-May-30, 11:42, said:

Of course it depends on your alternative uses for these bids...

The main disadvantage is the loss of natural 2nt. This means when you have a flat invite opponents get more info to help defend and more bids to double for the lead. It can make finding a spade fit awkward since 1nt-2c-2h-2nt doesn't guarantee four spades (you can use 2s to "fix" this but it creates other issues).

after the 1NT - 2C - 2H - 2NT sequence would 3S not then say I accept the invite to game, if you have 4 spades bid 4S if u don't bid 3N?

[eagles123]

 awm, on 2013-May-30, 11:42, said:

Of course it depends on your alternative uses for these bids...

The main disadvantage is the loss of natural 2nt. This means when you have a flat invite opponents get more info to help defend and more bids to double for the lead. It can make finding a spade fit awkward since 1nt-2c-2h-2nt doesn't guarantee four spades (you can use 2s to "fix" this but it creates other issues).

after the 1NT - 2C - 2H - 2NT sequence would 3S not then say I accept the invite to game, if you have 4 spades bid 4S if u don't bid 3N?

[awm]

 Vampyr, on 2013-May-30, 11:45, said:

Does it? What are they?

Maybe a bit beyond the scope of this forum, but the question was asked so...

Suppose you play after 1NT-2♣-2♥ that 2♠ shows four spades and 2NT shows an invite without four spades. Then:

1. You have wrong-sided any spade contract.
2. You cannot use the 2♠ bid for some other useful meaning, such as five spades invitational.

Of course, you could also invert the bids so 2♠ is an invite without four spades and 2NT is invite with four spades. Then:

1. You give the opponents an artificial 2♠ bid to double for the lead.
2. You still cannot use the 2♠ bid for some other useful meaning.

Note that using stayman followed by 2♠ as five spades invitational is actually really good. It lets you stop in 2♠ when opener is declining the invite, it lets you get out in 3m if responder has a light 5/5 invite and opener has no fit for spades, and it frees up the transfer-then-2NT sequence for other uses.

[awm]

 eagles123, on 2013-May-30, 15:17, said:

after the 1NT - 2C - 2H - 2NT sequence would 3S not then say I accept the invite to game, if you have 4 spades bid 4S if u don't bid 3N?

Sure, but if opener is rejecting the invite you wind up in 2NT instead of 3♠. It's even worse because there are some hands that improve if there is a major suit fit, like if responder has a 4144 hand, and you can easily miss game in these situations.

[Kungsgeten]

If you decide to play 4 suit transfers I'd recommend including a 2NT and 3♣ response to Stayman. This way finding 4-4 in spades (as mentioned above) gets easier and you do not have to give quite as much information to the opponents:

1NT-2♣;
2♦ = no major, as usual
2♥ = 4 hearts, not 4 spades
2♠ = 4 spades, not 4 hearts (as usual)
2NT = minimum hand with 4-4 majors
3♣ = max hand with 4-4 majors

Over the 2NT and 3♣ responder can bid 3NT or transfer into a major at the 3-level (may then pass, bid game, cue bid etc).

[Siegmund]

A lot of people bemoaning the loss of the natural 2NT response here...

But getting in the habit of passing 1 or bidding 3 with those flat invitational hands, rather than leaking information and getting too high with 2NT - or leaking even more information with 2C-then-2NT, can be added to the "advantages" column. There are so few hands that legitimately benefit from a pure point-count invitation that giving it up probably saves you from yourself.

I haven't missed it the last 2 years or so.

[Vampyr]

 eagles123, on 2013-May-30, 15:17, said:

after the 1NT - 2C - 2H - 2NT sequence would 3S not then say I accept the invite to game, if you have 4 spades bid 4S if u don't bid 3N?

1NT - 2♣ -2♥ -3NT carries the same message.

 Kungsgeten, on 2013-May-30, 16:38, said:

If you decide to play 4 suit transfers I'd recommend including a 2NT and 3♣ response to Stayman. This way finding 4-4 in spades (as mentioned above) gets easier and you do not have to give quite as much information to the opponents:

1NT-2♣;
2♦ = no major, as usual
2♥ = 4 hearts, not 4 spades
2♠ = 4 spades, not 4 hearts (as usual)
2NT = minimum hand with 4-4 majors
3♣ = max hand with 4-4 majors

Over the 2NT and 3♣ responder can bid 3NT or transfer into a major at the 3-level (may then pass, bid game, cue bid etc).

Garbage Stayman way too valuable to give up.

[antonylee]

 Vampyr, on 2013-May-30, 20:43, said:

Garbage Stayman way too valuable to give up.

Apparently not by Standard French which uses the same 5-step Stayman response scheme (as soon as you learn 4 suit transfers). Not that I think it's a good idea but well.

[Trinidad]

As people have pointed out, the biggest drawback is not having a balanced invite. Though it doesnot solve all the issues there is a solution that solves quite a few of them. You might want to see it as "3.5 suit transfers":

2♦, 2♥ and 2NT are as in four suit transfers.
2♠ is:
- a traditional transfer to clubs
- a balanced invite (the traditional raise to 2NT)

Opener rebids:
2NT with a minimum (responder passes with a balanced invite, bids 3♣ with a club sign off or an invitation or anything else with a strong hand)
3♣ with a maximum (responder bids as after a superaccept)

The drawbacks:
- You lose the traditional 3♣ invite based on club fit (♣AQxxxx and out opposite ♠Axx♥Axxx♦Axx♣Kxx). Opener can "adjust" a little bit by being a little more aggressive with a top honor in clubs.
- The opponents can still double 2♠ for the lead. But the probability that the doubler will end up on lead against 2♠X when he doesn't want to be is much larger, so fourth hand should be careful.

Rik

[plum_tree]

 Vampyr, on 2013-May-30, 11:15, said:

You lose other uses for 2♠ (eg Baron, minor-suit Stayman) and 2NT (natural invitational).

What's Baron?

[Cyberyeti]

IMO the major drawback has not been mentioned.

Which auction is easier to find the killing lead to:

1N-2♣-2M-2N

1N-2N

We would lose not only our 1N-2♠ method of showing GF hands with both minors (clearly the WTO in a minor which is the other half of the bid is covered) but also 1N-2♣-2♥-2♠ which we use as a general slam invite/shape enquiry and would now need to show spades.

[Zelandakh]

It depends what you are comparing it to. Against (American) Standard you are pretty clearly ahead imho. On the other hand there are some good alternatives that do not give up an immediate invite. The simplest of these is to use 2♠ as a 2-way bid (clubs or a 2NT invite) while keeping 2NT as a diamond transfer. The only thing you give up here is the ability to super-accept clubs based on support (rather than on general strength).

Another good approach is to make the diamond transfer via Stayman, which has the small advantage of sometimes allowing you to play at the 2 level when holding the weak hand type. You might call schemes like this, where the diamond transfer is bid via Stayman "3 suit transfers".

One thing you do need to decide is whether to bid the GF one-suited hands via the transfer (Standard) or the 2-suited hands (my choice) or both. If you send the 1-suiters through the transfer then you can play the rebids as showing shortage but you need to send the other hands through (usually) Stayman. If you send the 2-suited hands through the transfer then the rebid shows the second suit (either directly or via a second transfer) and you need an alternative route for the 1-suiters (a natural 3m response works). If you try and squeeze both types in then you run into some difficulties and I would not recommend this.

Basically, once you start thinking about how to arrange these hands outside of a natural context, a wide range of options open up. It is actually quite educational to think about this in some detail. It allows you to see how bidding systems can be constructed within a limited enough framework that it is not too confusing.

[akwoo]

One other possibility to mention:

You can also use 3♣ as your transfer to diamonds. Now you get to keep 2N as your point count invite. You lose the possibility of super-accepting in diamonds. You also lose whatever other use you might have for 3♣, but I don't see that as a big deal.

If you are playing against decent opponents, the drawback Cyberyeti mentioned is huge. Not only that, the information disadvantage isn't just on opening lead; it persists throughout the play.

[Vampyr]

 plum_tree, on 2013-May-31, 01:24, said:

What's Baron?

Baron is a method in which after 1NT - 2♠, opener bids 2NT with a minimum and his lowest 4-card suit with a maximum. 4-4 fits in minors can be found this way, and obviously invitational balanced raises are bid this way.

Another popular method is to use 1NT - 2♠ as a minor-suit signoff or slam try. This keeps a natural 2NT raise and you could also play that 1NT - 3m is natural and invitational.

These two bids can be combined in various ways; one can be a balanced invite and the other a minor-suit signoff or slam try.

Many years ago I played that 1NT - 2♠ was a diamond bust or minor-suit stayman, and 1NT - 2NT was a club bust or a strong 4-4-4-1. Or something like that.

So you can do loads of stuff; the tradeoff is, of course, which hand-types you can't show. With 4-suit transfers the hand-type you lose is the minor-suit slam type where responder doesn't have 6 or more cards. You get a few of these back if you use 1NT - 3M for the fragment or shortage with a (31)(45) hand. And also you can use 1NT - 3♣ and/or 3♦ to show hands that are 5-5 in the minors.