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What system do you recommend a novice should learn?

Poll: System for a novice to learn (45 member(s) have cast votes)

What system should a novice learn?

  1. Goren (3 votes [6.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.67%

  2. SAYC (13 votes [28.89%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 28.89%

  3. Standard American (not the Yellow Card) (5 votes [11.11%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 11.11%

  4. Acol (6 votes [13.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.33%

  5. 2/1 (9 votes [20.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  6. Precision (7 votes [15.56%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 15.56%

  7. Something else (2 votes [4.44%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.44%

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#61 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2014-November-10, 20:19

View Posthelene_t, on 2014-November-07, 06:48, said:

Forcing to two of the opening suit is almost universal on the British islands. People open too light for f2nt to be playable.


Interesting. As I have already stated on more than 1 occassion, forcing to 2NT was standard in Australia even 20 years ago. It is FAR superior to have responder promise a second bid rather than the crude method of only forcing to 2 opener's suit.
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#62 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2014-November-12, 11:34

View Postthe hog, on 2014-November-10, 20:19, said:

Interesting. As I have already stated on more than 1 occassion, forcing to 2NT was standard in Australia even 20 years ago. It is FAR superior to have responder promise a second bid rather than the crude method of only forcing to 2 opener's suit.


Why not promise a second bid unless opener's rebid is 2NT?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#63 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-November-12, 11:51

View PostWinstonm, on 2014-November-12, 11:34, said:

Why not promise a second bid unless opener's rebid is 2NT?


2NT in this situation is normally forcing to game.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#64 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2014-November-12, 17:54

View PostWinstonm, on 2014-November-12, 11:34, said:

Why not promise a second bid unless opener's rebid is 2NT?

5
2NT is a 15-17 rebid and is a gf.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#65 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2014-November-13, 02:01

If you want to play sound 2-level responses in a weak nt 4cH 5cS context you can play kaplan inversion.
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#66 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2014-November-13, 10:57

View PostVampyr, on 2014-November-10, 16:27, said:

It seems to me that 2/1 forcing to 2NT incorporates the worst of both worlds. If you are going to play 2/1 forcing to 2NT, you might as well go whole hog and play it forcing to game.


Well, I've never been a convert to 2/1. Don't like forcing NT and never have.
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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#67 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2014-November-13, 11:11

View Posthelene_t, on 2014-November-10, 11:00, said:

It is not really playable either since opener will pass the 1NT response with 15-16 points.

But presumably you could play a sound multi/muiderberg style in combination with mandatory 1NT opening on 5M332 in range. Then 1M will be sound unless it is both majors, so 1 followed by 2 would be showing a sound opener and could be forcing. You still have to find a solution for the 10-12 Flannery hands, though.


It works with a 14-16 NT opener though.

And yes, though it has its drawbacks, a 5M332 opens 1NT when in range. And, yes, I do like (constructive-ish) 2 suited pre-empts. Prefer 2D multi and Polish style 2H, 2S, 2NT (5/5 shapes). I don't worry about 5/4 shapes if they are not 1 level openers. Seems to work OK to me.
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#68 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2014-November-13, 11:17

View PostWinstonm, on 2014-November-12, 11:34, said:

Why not promise a second bid unless opener's rebid is 2NT?


Coz a 2NT is not weak NT. A weak NT hand rebids a 2nd 4 card suit if possible or repeats it's suit (including making a 4 card diamond rebid if necessary over 2C) and lets responder make the running.
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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#69 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-November-13, 17:42

View PostNickRW, on 2014-November-13, 10:57, said:

Well, I've never been a convert to 2/1. Don't like forcing NT and never have.


Neither do I, but I do think that 2/1 FG is better than 2/1 F2NT.
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#70 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-November-13, 17:45

View PostNickRW, on 2014-November-13, 11:17, said:

A weak NT hand rebids a 2nd 4 card suit if possible or repeats its suit


Or opens a weak NT...
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#71 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2014-November-14, 02:57

View PostVampyr, on 2014-November-13, 17:45, said:

Or opens a weak NT...


Weak NT does not work with 2/1 as f2NT and a non forcing 1NT response. A non forcing 1NT response includes most 10 counts and the odd downgraded 11. Therefore a balanced opener can afford to pass with up to 13 or a poor 14 comfortable in the knowledge that game was 50/50 at best. However once opener picks up a reasonable 14 count, you want to bid, but cannot for fear that responder was weak. Therefore the opening NT has to start at a reasonable 14 count.

If you're saying you don't like my system - fair enough - it isn't perfect. But neither is Acol, SA, or 2/1 (or Precision or Blue Club or whatever).

Edit, p.s. depending on exactly what your 1 of a suit openers show, a weak NT may well be opening 1C a lot (or all) of the time. In which case the argument about what is forcing or not etc on a weak, balanced opener tends to go away.
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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#72 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-November-14, 09:02

View PostNickRW, on 2014-November-14, 02:57, said:

If you're saying you don't like my system - fair enough - it isn't perfect. But neither is Acol, SA, or 2/1 (or Precision or Blue Club or whatever).


It's not that I don't like your system; I didn't know what it was. I had gathered from an earlier post that you don't play 2/1 F 2NT. My mistake.

PS As open strong NT, I am wondering what a 2NT rebid after 2/1 shows.
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#73 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2014-November-14, 09:56

View PostVampyr, on 2014-November-14, 09:02, said:

It's not that I don't like your system; I didn't know what it was. I had gathered from an earlier post that you don't play 2/1 F 2NT. My mistake.


It depends on who I am playing with!



View PostVampyr, on 2014-November-14, 09:02, said:

PS As open strong NT, I am wondering what a 2NT rebid after 2/1 shows.


Assuming I'm playing 2/1 as F2NT, then the 2NT rebid works FAR better as a strong (17+) bid. If you gobble up the whole 2 level to show a weak NT, when responder isn't going to drop the bidding below that level anyway, then you make it bad for the 17+ flat hand that now presumably has to rebid 3NT (eugh). Further, when responder was planning a reverse, they are now forced to the 3 level to show it.

Really it is far more like playing 2/1GF (but not quite) without the forcing NT response than it is to Acol or Standard.
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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