[gwnn]

I forgot to link this before, it may shed some light on the matter:
https://en.wikipedia...ation_of_energy

[billw55]

There are some things in life I don't need scientific studies to tell me about. One of them is that most fat people are fat from their own doing, and it is within their power to lose weight.

Athletes in strength sports do need different tables. I remember when a clever writer applied the BMI to the roster of the then-NBA champion Chicago Bulls. Every player except Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr was obese according to the tables. Unfortunately bridge does not count as athletic

[Winstonm]

blackshoe, on 2013-July-01, 00:05, said:

You apparently have no clue what I mean, and aren't likely to find one.

Perhaps I did not grasp what you were saying, but it appeared as if you were suggesting that shutting out non-traditional medical research was somehow closing off a genuine avenue of life improvement. All I said in response was that if this type research worked, eventually it would have to be tested and verified by traditional methods else we are simply "hoping" for a cure, i.e., taking someone's word that it works. Suspending our disbelief, so to speak.

[helene_t]

I used to weigh a bit much. Then Gosha adviced me to stop eating take-away and to replace fruit juices with tap water. I lost 15 kg in less than half a year.

Given that I have never been under much peer pressure to eat junk food and that I have always lived in places with reasonable tap water you can say that it was entirely my own fault. I could of cause blame my parents/teachers/gps/government for not having given me better advice. Or I could blame the take-away shop and juice manufacturers. Anyway, I don't like those ATB games much. Much better to discusss what to do about it, and indeed, how big the problem is. Maybe a few kilo overweight isn't that bad.

I think there are very few people who have such metabloc anomalies that they couldn't keep a reasonable BMI without extreme measures beyond avoiding sugar and empty calories, limiting starch, and just not eating more than they need to get enough energy, protein and micronutrients. So in that sense you could say that it is almost always the person's own fault.

OTOH it is obviously much more difficult for some than for others.

[Winstonm]

helene_t, on 2013-July-01, 08:01, said:

I used to weigh a bit much. Then Gosha adviced me to stop eating take-away and to replace fruit juices with tap water. I lost 15 kg in less than half a year.

Given that I have never been on much peer pressure to eat junk food and that I have always lived in places with reasonable tap water you can say that it was entirely my own fault. I could of cause blame my parents/teachers/gps/government for not having given me better advice. Or I could blame the take-away shop and juice manufacturers. Anyway, I don't like those ATB games much. Much better to discusss what to do about it, and indeed, how big the problem is. Maybe a few kilo overweight isn't that bad.

I think there are very few people who have such metabloc anomalies that couldn't keep a reasonable BMI without extreme measures beyond avoiding sugar and empty calories, limiting starch, and just not eating more than they need to get enough energy, protein and micronutrients. So in that sense you could say that it is almost always the person's own fault.

OTOH it is obviously much more difficult for some than for others.

I read an interesting book many years ago that claimed the problem with the U.S. diet is that we eat like noblemen of old, that in the past only the wealthy few could afford our diet - and that diet brought its own special diseases to the wealthy of that era, like gout and diabetes and fatty liver disease.

The leanest cultures historically tended to be those who relied primarily on starches as the basis of diet. Interestingly, man has 7 times the amylase than other primates, which is essential for digesting starches, which means man could move away from food sources grown only around the equator and live in other latitudes by consuming starch-based plants like potatoes, rice, and corn.

[ArtK78]

I am not overweight. I am merely about 9 inches too short.

We had a health screening at work last week. According to the height and weight charts, I am borderline obese. Even the health aid who went over things with me told me that the charts were stupid as they were one size fits all and did not account for persons with larger frames. I admit that I could stand to lose a few pounds, but any chart that says I have to lose 50 pounds to be considered "normal." is stupid. Maybe 10-15 pounds would be about right.

[barmar]

Winstonm, on 2013-June-30, 09:17, said:

The time to present conclusions to the public is after the testing is done, not in the hypothesis stage. Anyone presenting a one-sided argument in support of his own hypothesis sounds more to me like someone trying to sell a product than someone trying to accurately research.

Isn't one of the points of TED Talks to spur more discussion and research, by exposing provocative ideas and engaging the public?

[Winstonm]

onoway, on 2013-June-30, 17:14, said:

Ha. So exactly what IS "reality"? As far as scientific study is concerned, if you had watched a little more of the video he makes a point that he is part of a group of highly qualified scientists studying insulin resistance and they all have different opinions as to the cause which they are investigating, so the suggestion that he is trying to preempt science to his own pov is certainly not justified.

It seems to me that "thinking outside the box" is what has led to virtually all progress in human history. And vitriolic reaction on the part of scientists who resent others who think outside the box is certainly well documented over and over from such things as saying an eclipse was a sign that the gods were annoyed and must be appeased or the earth was NOT flat and the sun didn't revolve around it, to the concept of washing hands might diminish the incidence of death among women giving birth.

Dr Linus Pauling, who was a Nobel prize winner was designated by his peers as having sadly lost it when he advocated a specific regime of a specific form of vitamin C for the treatment of some cancers; a regime which apparently the Mayo Clinic found actually to have some basis in fact, some 40 years later. Who'd a thought.

It isn't a willing suspension of DISbelief so much as a willing suspension of BELIEF.

OK, I watched the entire video and I'm sure this guy is genuine. I found nothing particularly surprising, though, as there is no direct cause and effect known between obesity and diabetes, only an enhanced risk. And I would concur with this doctor that there is something else going on, but I have to reject his hyphothesis that insulin resistance causes obesity.

De novo lipogenesis (conversion of carbohydrates and starches into fat) is almost non-existent in humans, but not in other animals. For humans, the main source of stored body fat is from the fat we consume.

Now, if there is such a mechanism that this doctor finds it would be something that changes the basic mechanisms of human biology and "turns on" de novo lipogenesis in humans. Perhaps there is such a disorder - but until it can be shown to be possible to alter basic human biology in this fashion, in my mind it has to fall outside the realms of the possible.

I agree that insulin resistance is the key issue, but in my mind insulin resistance would make it easier to gain weight from a poor diet but not be a causative factor of obesity.

For me, I would have to see the results of an insulin-resistant obese person who followed a starch-based vegan diet for a year and could not lower his BMI significantly before I could accept insulin resistance as the cause of obesity.

It may be that insulin resistance is a result of poor diet over an extended period of time, so that this doctor's hypothetical argument becomes almost circular. I would argue that obesity is indeed a symptom, but it is a symptom of dietary choices exacerbated by genetics and perhaps other unknown factors.

[Phil]

I'm 5'10 and 192 (this morning). I'll be 50 tomorrow. My peak was 210 in 2007, but I've been as low was 170 in 2001 when I was running 30 miles a week. I weigh more than both my dad (who is taller) and my younger brother (who is shorter), but we are all within 10 pounds of each other. I bike between 20 and 60 miles per week now, and I feel like I'm in the 2nd best shape of my life.

In order to get to a 'healthy' BMI, I need to lose around 20 pounds. If I lost 20 pounds, I would look like a stick figure. If I lost 30 pounds I would look like a refugee. My perfect weight is probably 180 or so.

I am convinced that with a little dedication anyone can get to a reasonably healthy weight by cutting out beer and junk food. There are some people that have a propensity toward gaining weight, just like there are people that have problems with the bottle and maybe even violence. But w/e, we are all the product of the choices we make and I do not judge.

One of my bridge partners is huge. His wife is pretty big too. They are both great people and we have fun with them. They make unhealthy choices on a daily basis, and I'm sure they will shorten their life span if they don't change. But its their decision to make.

[kenberg]

Happy Birthday, Phil.


I have known some people who, if they were a car, they would be recalled. But for most of us, probably including them or most of them, it's about choice. For one thing, you cannot trade in your genes for better genes. Not yet anyway. But we can all make better choices. I say this as someone who, at times, has made some godawful dumb choices. If we acknowledge that they were choices, and that they were dumb, maybe we can do better.


That doesn't mean researchers shouldn't research. Of course they should. Medical science appears to me to be the most exciting field around these days, But we will never be relieved of the consequences of making choices.

[Winstonm]

Happy birthday, Phil.

[onoway]

Happy Birthday Phil

[gwnn]

Happy belated birthday Phil+happy birthday America!

Hugleikur Dagsson is an Icelandic cartoon artist, often slightly strange, who had the following 4th of July greeting: