[eagles123]

Matchpoints -

4S went down 1 whereas 4H made

---

Where did we go wrong?

Thanks

Eagles

[wank]

you didn't go wrong. 4sx is 200 or 500 and 4h (only 420 if it makes) might go off so you're getting rather poor odds. saving on these cards would a major faux pas.

yes in matchpoints the magnitude of the difference is irrelevant unlike in teams. however, this cuts both ways. many pairs won't be bidding 4h. the only way you can hope to beat pairs whose opps didn't 4h is by defending and hoping it goes off.

edit: there's nothing wrong with 3s. at these colours at matchpoints it's a very serious bid. you don't do it on shite ready to go -2 or 3 like you might non-vul or at teams - -200 is the kiss of matchpoints death. yes you could show a raise in other ways, but those give the opps more room.

[billw55]

The colors are wrong for sacrificing. Both hands hold more defense than expected. There will be a fair number of layouts where 4♥ does not make. Lots of reasons not to dive.

That said, I think east's 3♠ preemptive raise is an underbid.

[ArtK78]

Assuming that 3♠ is a preemptive raise, it is an error. The hand is not preemptive in nature, it is constructive in nature.

Of course, West will decline any move towards playing in game. If NS insist on playing game on their cards, more power to them. If their spades are 2-2, they are a distinct underdog. If their spades are 3-1, they may still lose a trick in each suit. If their spades are 4-0, there is nothing EW can do. In any event, as has been mentioned above, EW may go for more than the value of the NS game in 4♠x and will almost certainly go minus even when NS has no game.

[eagles123]

ArtK78, on 2013-July-01, 14:50, said:

Assuming that 3♠ is a preemptive raise, it is an error. The hand is not preemptive in nature, it is constructive in nature.

Of course, West will decline any move towards playing in game. If NS insist on playing game on their cards, more power to them. If their spades are 2-2, they are a distinct underdog. If their spades are 3-1, they may still lose a trick in each suit. If their spades are 4-0, there is nothing EW can do. In any event, as has been mentioned above, EW may go for more than the value of the NS game in 4♠x and will almost certainly go minus even when NS has no game.

Yes I meant 3♠ as pre-emptive but obviously i'm not gonna do it very weak at this vulnerability so am I not kinda showing a reasonable hand?... but I guess I should make an Unassuming cue bid instead?

Thanks,

Eagles

[Zelandakh]

I think East should bid 3♥ over 2♦ to show a good raise with heart shortage. That increases the attractiveness of 4♠ greatly.

[P_Marlowe]

being red, finding a sac. against their making green game in a controllled manner
is next to impossible, unless our own game has a reasonable chance of making.
Playing MP, you need a 50%+ chance, that game makes, it is a bit easier playing IMPs,
since the red game bonus, if our game makes, or both games make is reducing the req.
for the making chances.

In the end, this comes down to

#1 luck
#2 the fact, that the East hand is fairly strong for a preemptive raise, you have
a so called mixed raise, a raise between weak and inv., ... being red the weak
raise should not be based on crap, but you are pretty good even being red.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ggwhiz]

eagles123, on 2013-July-01, 14:56, said:

Yes I meant 3♠ as pre-emptive but obviously i'm not gonna do it very weak at this vulnerability so am I not kinda showing a reasonable hand?... but I guess I should make an Unassuming cue bid instead?

Thanks,

Eagles

Missing the sac was a natural disaster with no blame.

I've had success cue bidding my way with cards like these and sounding tough to where the opps sell out to 3♠ once in a while, afraid to push us into game or if we do go to 4♠ they don't double or might even dive at five!

Don't be afraid to experiment a bit to find a style that suits you but imo, heavy pre-empts only drill your partner.

[gszes]

if you think of partners overcall like a opening bid your
8 hcp 4 trumps and a singleton qualify you for an immediate
4s bid. There is a very realistic possibility your side will play
4s undoubled or maybe even the opps will go to the 5 level
guessing what to do------ 3s is a decent bid at these colors
4s is a bit more exact and brings even more preemption and
guesswork for the opps.

[ArtK78]

gszes, on 2013-July-02, 21:32, said:

if you think of partners overcall like a opening bid your
8 hcp 4 trumps and a singleton qualify you for an immediate
4s bid. There is a very realistic possibility your side will play
4s undoubled or maybe even the opps will go to the 5 level
guessing what to do------ 3s is a decent bid at these colors
4s is a bit more exact and brings even more preemption and
guesswork for the opps.

With all due respect, this is just silly.

In no way does the East hand qualify as a game bid. Such a bid deserves to go -500 opposite nothing.

Also, this is a Novice and Beginner Forum. You really don't want to suggest to novices and beginners to jump to 4♠ vul against not on a hand like this.

[Winstonm]

eagles123, on 2013-July-01, 14:31, said:

Matchpoints -

4S went down 1 whereas 4H made

---

Where did we go wrong?

Thanks

Eagles

Never be concerned about the inability to find a vulnerable against non-vulnerable sacrifice. The times it is right to sacrifice red verses white are too rare to be worth any effort.

[gszes]

ArtK78, on 2013-July-02, 23:01, said:

With all due respect, this is just silly.

In no way does the East hand qualify as a game bid. Such a bid deserves to go -500 opposite nothing.

Also, this is a Novice and Beginner Forum. You really don't want to suggest to novices and beginners to jump to 4♠ vul against not on a hand like this.

vul vs not if the bidding began 1s pass and you held K942 3 Q763 K872
you would not bid 4s (assuming you do not have a bidding device like
mini splinters or bergen)??

I am not saying that bidding 4s under the auction given is risk free since
the opps have had a chance to exchange more information but the
principals are the same. I also prefer to think my vulnerable partner will
use some disgression (especially opposite a passed hand) and maybe
have a hand a tad better than an opening bid under the conditions
of the hand given.

I wholeheartedly agree we should not be seeking to make a vulnerable
sacrifice given the bidding at the table. I am suggesting that a 4s bid
(after 2d) will alter the circumstances and give our side a reasonable
shot at a good score.

[ArtK78]

gszes, on 2013-July-03, 16:48, said:

vul vs not if the bidding began 1s pass and you held K942 3 Q763 K872
you would not bid 4s (assuming you do not have a bidding device like
mini splinters or bergen)??

No. I would bid what the hand is worth - a limit raise.

[PhilKing]

gszes, on 2013-July-03, 16:48, said:

vul vs not if the bidding began 1s pass and you held K942 3 Q763 K872
you would not bid 4s (assuming you do not have a bidding device like
mini splinters or bergen)??

I confess I would just bid 4♠.

[eagles123]

thanks guys for all the comments

[Fluffy]

sacrifices vul vs not are simply very small targets, you should never aim at them, to bid game at this vulnerability you should always have at least some intention to make.