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Suppose you could only start control bidding on 5-level. Is it 1st OR 1st/2nd control?:
1S-2C
2H-4S
5C-5D
1S-(4H)-4S-(P)
5C-(P)-5D
5C: Is it always 1st control OR is it 1st/2nd control?
5D: Is it always 1st control OR is it 1st/2nd control?
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First controls on 5-level: 1st or 2nd?
#2
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Posted 2013-September-25, 12:26
In both sequences, responder has not shown any slam interest.
In the fast arrival jump to 4♠ he would, in many methods (including my own) explicitly deny slam interest, while in the second, over the 4♥ call, his range is wider.....from a very good single raise with shape to a hand not quite good enough to try for slam.
For those reasons, my view is that 5♣ has to show 1st round control. I have difficulty constructing hands on which I would need to cue 2nd round controls at this point in the auction. I am cuebidding because I need to hear about specific controls, which means that I am missing some important card or two...outside of clubs. If my club cue could be lacking the A, then I must really be looking for a lot of help, and I don't think I should risk the 5 level on either auction if I need that much help for slam.
This is especially true for the pre-empted auction, since partner wasn't even expressing a firm opinion that we could make game.
As for 5♦, by contrast, I think it could be either 1st or 2nd. Partner has shown a very strong hand by forcing beyond game, for all of the reasons above, and will have a specific concern about a suit. He couldn't keycard, which may well mean that he is concerned about a suit in which he has no control.
In the first auction, I would definitely cue a second round control, since I have described my hand pretty well already. On the second, I think I would cue a second round control only with a full value 4♠ call: a very good limit or better hand. If I have already stretched to compete, I'd only cue with 1st round. This may mean, on occasion, missing a good slam and I could be persuaded that I ought to cue regardless of range, since my usual rule is that cuebidding below game is optional, and always suggests at least no distaste for slam, while cuebidding beyond game, once initiated, is mandatory.
In the fast arrival jump to 4♠ he would, in many methods (including my own) explicitly deny slam interest, while in the second, over the 4♥ call, his range is wider.....from a very good single raise with shape to a hand not quite good enough to try for slam.
For those reasons, my view is that 5♣ has to show 1st round control. I have difficulty constructing hands on which I would need to cue 2nd round controls at this point in the auction. I am cuebidding because I need to hear about specific controls, which means that I am missing some important card or two...outside of clubs. If my club cue could be lacking the A, then I must really be looking for a lot of help, and I don't think I should risk the 5 level on either auction if I need that much help for slam.
This is especially true for the pre-empted auction, since partner wasn't even expressing a firm opinion that we could make game.
As for 5♦, by contrast, I think it could be either 1st or 2nd. Partner has shown a very strong hand by forcing beyond game, for all of the reasons above, and will have a specific concern about a suit. He couldn't keycard, which may well mean that he is concerned about a suit in which he has no control.
In the first auction, I would definitely cue a second round control, since I have described my hand pretty well already. On the second, I think I would cue a second round control only with a full value 4♠ call: a very good limit or better hand. If I have already stretched to compete, I'd only cue with 1st round. This may mean, on occasion, missing a good slam and I could be persuaded that I ought to cue regardless of range, since my usual rule is that cuebidding below game is optional, and always suggests at least no distaste for slam, while cuebidding beyond game, once initiated, is mandatory.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
#3
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Posted 2013-September-25, 15:03
Any cuebid by definition can be first or second round, only exception is made for suits where partner is likely short.
#4
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Posted 2013-September-25, 17:46
mikeh, on 2013-September-25, 12:26, said:
In both sequences, responder has not shown any slam interest.
In the fast arrival jump to 4♠ he would, in many methods (including my own) explicitly deny slam interest, while in the second, over the 4♥ call, his range is wider.....from a very good single raise with shape to a hand not quite good enough to try for slam.
In the fast arrival jump to 4♠ he would, in many methods (including my own) explicitly deny slam interest, while in the second, over the 4♥ call, his range is wider.....from a very good single raise with shape to a hand not quite good enough to try for slam.
Responder is showing a control poor hand. With average controls responder should be cueing on the three level rather than jumping to 4♠.
#5
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Posted 2013-September-25, 18:06
jogs, on 2013-September-25, 17:46, said:
Responder is showing a control poor hand. With average controls responder should be cueing on the three level rather than jumping to 4♠.
Are you agreeing with me or arguing with me?
Is there a difference between 'a control poor hand' and 'a hand with no slam interest'?
Sounds like the same thing to me
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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Posted 2013-September-25, 18:35
mikeh, on 2013-September-25, 12:26, said:
In both sequences, responder has not shown any slam interest.
In the fast arrival jump to 4♠ he would, in many methods (including my own) explicitly deny slam interest, while in the second, over the 4♥ call, his range is wider.....from a very good single raise with shape to a hand not quite good enough to try for slam.
For those reasons, my view is that 5♣ has to show 1st round control. I have difficulty constructing hands on which I would need to cue 2nd round controls at this point in the auction. I am cuebidding because I need to hear about specific controls, which means that I am missing some important card or two...outside of clubs. If my club cue could be lacking the A, then I must really be looking for a lot of help, and I don't think I should risk the 5 level on either auction if I need that much help for slam.
This is especially true for the pre-empted auction, since partner wasn't even expressing a firm opinion that we could make game.
As for 5♦, by contrast, I think it could be either 1st or 2nd. Partner has shown a very strong hand by forcing beyond game, for all of the reasons above, and will have a specific concern about a suit. He couldn't keycard, which may well mean that he is concerned about a suit in which he has no control.
In the first auction, I would definitely cue a second round control, since I have described my hand pretty well already. On the second, I think I would cue a second round control only with a full value 4♠ call: a very good limit or better hand. If I have already stretched to compete, I'd only cue with 1st round. This may mean, on occasion, missing a good slam and I could be persuaded that I ought to cue regardless of range, since my usual rule is that cuebidding below game is optional, and always suggests at least no distaste for slam, while cuebidding beyond game, once initiated, is mandatory.
In the fast arrival jump to 4♠ he would, in many methods (including my own) explicitly deny slam interest, while in the second, over the 4♥ call, his range is wider.....from a very good single raise with shape to a hand not quite good enough to try for slam.
For those reasons, my view is that 5♣ has to show 1st round control. I have difficulty constructing hands on which I would need to cue 2nd round controls at this point in the auction. I am cuebidding because I need to hear about specific controls, which means that I am missing some important card or two...outside of clubs. If my club cue could be lacking the A, then I must really be looking for a lot of help, and I don't think I should risk the 5 level on either auction if I need that much help for slam.
This is especially true for the pre-empted auction, since partner wasn't even expressing a firm opinion that we could make game.
As for 5♦, by contrast, I think it could be either 1st or 2nd. Partner has shown a very strong hand by forcing beyond game, for all of the reasons above, and will have a specific concern about a suit. He couldn't keycard, which may well mean that he is concerned about a suit in which he has no control.
In the first auction, I would definitely cue a second round control, since I have described my hand pretty well already. On the second, I think I would cue a second round control only with a full value 4♠ call: a very good limit or better hand. If I have already stretched to compete, I'd only cue with 1st round. This may mean, on occasion, missing a good slam and I could be persuaded that I ought to cue regardless of range, since my usual rule is that cuebidding below game is optional, and always suggests at least no distaste for slam, while cuebidding beyond game, once initiated, is mandatory.
I disagree with this. In my methods responder has shown a 4-2-2-5 shape with no better than Qx in either doubleton. The C and the S suit will be good. In other words a traditional picture bid. Hence opener's 5C bid asks specifically about the C holding - 2 or 3 top honors. I thought these picture bids were standard in 2/1; I guess not!
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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Posted 2013-September-26, 00:23
the hog, on 2013-September-25, 18:35, said:
I disagree with this. In my methods responder has shown a 4-2-2-5 shape with no better than Qx in either doubleton. The C and the S suit will be good. In other words a traditional picture bid. Hence opener's 5C bid asks specifically about the C holding - 2 or 3 top honors. I thought these picture bids were standard in 2/1; I guess not!
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Posted 2013-September-26, 02:15
kgr, on 2013-September-26, 00:23, said:
we don't play 2/1. 2S non-forcing. 3S slem interest. 4S minimum GF
If these are your methods, I would agree with what Mikeh has posted.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
#9
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Posted 2013-September-26, 03:15
They can be either aces or kings, but you should use your judgement about whether to cue-bid a king.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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Posted 2013-September-26, 09:07
mikeh, on 2013-September-25, 18:06, said:
Are you agreeing with me or arguing with me?
Is there a difference between 'a control poor hand' and 'a hand with no slam interest'?
Sounds like the same thing to me
Is there a difference between 'a control poor hand' and 'a hand with no slam interest'?
Sounds like the same thing to me
Agreeing with you.
#11
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Posted 2013-September-28, 02:23
Thanks for the answers!
The question was triggered by follow-up discussion with partner about 2nd bidding in:
http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry754228
Bidding could go f.i.:
1S-2C
2H-4S
5C-5D
6H-7S
But what if opener had a 6=6=0=1 with f.i. ♣Q? Can he not bid 5C then?
The question was triggered by follow-up discussion with partner about 2nd bidding in:
http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry754228
Bidding could go f.i.:
1S-2C
2H-4S
5C-5D
6H-7S
But what if opener had a 6=6=0=1 with f.i. ♣Q? Can he not bid 5C then?
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