[jeffford76]

BAM, 4S= at the other table

---

[wank]

north is just begging for south to show some life and he's sat there passing away with a hand with which most people would bid without prompting.

at unfav at this scoring, north's conservatism with regard to jumping to 4s is entirely fair.

[Cyberyeti]

On a heart lead, isn't 4♠ a horrible contract with most of the points with W ?

[ggwhiz]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-January-20, 16:34, said:

On a heart lead, isn't 4♠ a horrible contract with most of the points with W ?

Or a diamond lead or a trump lead. I can't vote unless you include defense at the other table which may have been just an unlucky club lead or a hail Mary heart finesse.

[jeffford76]

ggwhiz, on 2014-January-20, 16:40, said:

Or a diamond lead or a trump lead. I can't vote unless you include defense at the other table which may have been just an unlucky club lead or a hail Mary heart finesse.

I don't really understand why "who bid too little" would be affected by the other table. If you think it's a bad game to be in, isn't the answer "Neither"?

The heart hook was on for a diamond pitch. At my table they started with three rounds of clubs, so you could actually make 5 if you risked the hook later.

[mr1303]

It's my style to put 4S on the table with those North hands. Even at unfavourable.

Having said that, South really should bid game.

[Cyberyeti]

jeffford76, on 2014-January-20, 17:02, said:

I don't really understand why "who bid too little" would be affected by the other table. If you think it's a bad game to be in, isn't the answer "Neither"?

The heart hook was on for a diamond pitch. At my table they started with three rounds of clubs, so you could actually make 5 if you risked the hook later.

It's not obvious what to do on the third club, as you should potentially be getting overruffed

[kenrexford]

North is getting off the hook too much, IMO. After a 1S start, with 8 cashers, the heart stiff being a contextually false problem, 3C as a 3NT - inviting call both describes the hand better and is more likely to get the correct 3NT contract found.

of course south could have bid 1NT earlier,...

[Bbradley62]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-January-20, 18:21, said:

It's not obvious what to do on the third club, as you should potentially be getting overruffed

Why would you ruff instead of pitching a diamond?

[P_Marlowe]

South? WTP?

I mean North marches to the 3 level, red vs. green without any
knowledge, that his partner has anything at all, he even bids
3S, not 2S, and we are discussing, who did bid too little?

And that game is not brilliant on the given set, is not really
relevant, change the North hand slightly, e.g. give it a 2nd
heart, and you want to be there, and the 7222 shape makes the
North hand a bit worser than the 7321 hand North actually has.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

Bbradley62, on 2014-January-20, 22:22, said:

Why would you ruff instead of pitching a diamond?

So you pitch a diamond and take the heart finesse when it's ruffed, if it's not going to be ruffed then the man with the clubs should have put a diamond on the table at trick 2, and probably shouldn't have bid 2♣.

[humilities]

Given South could be completely broke, North will be bidding conservatively - lots of medium hands will rebid 2S. As was said above, 3S is basically begging South for something, anything. Two trumps and an AQ10 should be automatic.

I don't like North jumping to 4S at all in BAM or matchpoints. You have the spade suit and 15hcp - it could easily be a partscore hand. Why voluntarily go minus?

ps: I love Ken's 3C call.

[HighLow21]

4♠ is a somewhat crummy game... borderline at best. I don't blame either frankly -- as many of half of South's points might be wasted and he has a worthless spade doubleton with no ruffing value.

And look at the game itself -- on a major suit lead it's a mediocre contract at best (lack of entries for a double diamond finesse) and even on a club lead, it might very well go down (either a 3rd round club ruff or a lack of entries for the double diamond finesse).

And by the way, the double diamond finesse CAN fail here.

I don't like 4♠ at all. In fact, I admire the restraint by both players. Change the Q♣ to the Q♠ and South should go 4♠.

[MrAce]

I think some people are over thinking this. N did fine against a passing pd. S was asleep when it was his turn.

4♠ is neither a great nor an awful contract, ♥ K is more likely to be with E when he showed 4-5 hearts. Yes W opened but E made a neg double. So E has some values too.

On a side note, if E does not have ♥ K, it is not a clear lead to lead from xxxx or Jxxx. Why would he ? All other leads increases the chance of 4♠.(not too much but still)

4♠ is obviously far from being a great contract also, for the reasons others mentioned.

All those who thinks that it was north in fault for the failure of playing 4♠, should ask themselves why 4♠ is not such a great contract even after pd provides an A Q in a suit, behind the owner of this suit + 2 card spades + another Q which may actually be 10th trick if defenders make a mistake.

[Cyberyeti]

HighLow21, on 2014-January-21, 10:16, said:

4♠ is a somewhat crummy game... borderline at best. I don't blame either frankly -- as many of half of South's points might be wasted and he has a worthless spade doubleton with no ruffing value.

And look at the game itself -- on a major suit lead it's a mediocre contract at best (lack of entries for a double diamond finesse) and even on a club lead, it might very well go down (either a 3rd round club ruff or a lack of entries for the double diamond finesse).

And by the way, the double diamond finesse CAN fail here.

I don't like 4♠ at all. In fact, I admire the restraint by both players. Change the Q♣ to the Q♠ and South should go 4♠.

4♠ is a sub par contract, 3N requires spades not 4-0. I would rather be in 3♠ than 4♠, but 3N is the spot.

Both players could have taken other decisions, I like 3♣ by N and might try 3N over 3♠ by S, but both players decided to be a little conservative on the same board.

[HighLow21]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-January-22, 06:47, said:

4♠ is a sub par contract, 3N requires spades not 4-0. I would rather be in 3♠ than 4♠, but 3N is the spot.

Both players could have taken other decisions, I like 3♣ by N and might try 3N over 3♠ by S, but both players decided to be a little conservative on the same board.

Excellent point Cyberyeti -- and that happens. Sometimes, both players decide to be a little too aggressive; sometimes, it balances out. If only bridge had half-bids available! ;-)

[gszes]

red vs white my p bids 3s all by their lonesome I have 2 probable tricks and my 2 small spades

greatly increase the chances of minimal to no spade losers I am bidding 4s.

I do not care one whit about club Q and if you changed it to dia Q I would merely consider it a plus.

this is more of a partnership trust issue than anything else if p does not think they have 8 tricks

they should not bid 3s since they can expect 2 tricks at most from me with this bidding. In my mind

it is that simple.

4s may end up being a poor contract but i have seen far worse and partnership harmony is more important

than a successful whim that works once in a while because p will tend to become either more aggressive or

more conservative depending on your whims:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Cyberyeti]

gszes, on 2014-January-22, 12:35, said:

red vs white my p bids 3s all by their lonesome I have 2 probable tricks and my 2 small spades

greatly increase the chances of minimal to no spade losers I am bidding 4s.

I do not care one whit about club Q and if you changed it to dia Q I would merely consider it a plus.

this is more of a partnership trust issue than anything else if p does not think they have 8 tricks

they should not bid 3s since they can expect 2 tricks at most from me with this bidding. In my mind

it is that simple.

4s may end up being a poor contract but i have seen far worse and partnership harmony is more important

than a successful whim that works once in a while because p will tend to become either more aggressive or

more conservative depending on your whims:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Some people won't have 8 tricks ever as they'd have started with a double. Opps appear to have something like 12 opposite 6 so K♥ is 2:1 to be offside modified slightly by the other hand being longer in hearts, so I don't see where you get 2 likely tricks from, 1.5 at most.

[CSGibson]

South needs to bid game, south has a moose in context, and the heart finesse has a much better chance of being on if needed after the negative double. This is true at both teams and matchpoints, but doubly so at teams. North bid the value of the hand.

While I sympathize with Ken Rexford's idea of 3♣ asking for a club control for NT, I personally have the agreement that when they have two bid suits and I could cue either one, I cue what I have, not what I need, which would be unavailable here; I would also bid 3♠, and hope that partner realized that they needed stops in both to try 3N - which would be a great bid in context.

[Cyberyeti]

I didn't actually say what I'd do at the table. I'd have overcalled 4♠ straight off. As little as ♦Kxx and a stiff spade could easily be enough for game, -100 may not be terrible, it's going to be difficult to double unless I'm walking into a stack as they don't know whether I have 7,8,9 spades at this vul, and if they bid, we could be taking quite a few.