[straube]

Some months ago I posted a variation of continuations after a 1C-1D IMprecision response. I received some help with this from Adam and Atul on that thread and though mostly the same, I've changed a few things. Probably the biggest change is including a better method of showing opener's stronger hands with both majors.

For balanced opposite gf balanced, typically the auction goes...

Opener has 25+
1C-1D, 2N

Opener has 23-24
1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2N

Opener has 21-22
1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-2D, 2N

Opener has 17-20
1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N

For those not acquainted with Adam's Imprecision responses...

1D-DN (fewer than 5 hcps) or GF distributional with 7+ relay points (about 11 hcps) or any hand (usually balanced) that wants to force game and be captain

The other bids are semipositive or light GF hands with between 2 and 6 QPs (roughly 5-10 hcps)
1H-4+ spades
1S-balanced or five+ diamonds, not four spades
1N-five+ hearts and fewer than four spades or five clubs
2C-six+ clubs or five+ clubs and four+ diamonds, no major
2D-4+ hearts and 5+ clubs
2H-3-suited short spades
2S-3-suited short clubs

(I've been putting the single-suited 7+ QP heart hands into 2N and higher (+0 compared to standard symmetric))

The basic idea is that after 1C-1H or higher, opener can be relay captain if he wants or can limit his hand by offering a part score somewhere. In the case of a 1D response, it is opener that has the first chance to show distribution and responder that can be captain.

So the point of 1C-1D, 2N showing 25+ hcps is that responder is likeliest to have a double negative where relays would not be possible. If responder does have a gf hand after this sequence, we're bidding some sort of slam and still have some room to explore.

The slower auctions...single steps by either hand...allow for the maximum chance of one partner or the other showing something interesting...an unbalanced hand.

1C-1D, 1H (balanced still possible)
....................1N-7+ QPs, S,S/C, S/D
....................2C-7+ QPs, S/H, S/H/m (i.e. 3-suited)
....................2D-7+ QPs, C/D
....................2H-7+ QPs, C (single-suited, 6 or more)
....................2S-7+ QPs, C/D/M
....................etc-7+ QPs, D

which accounts for every distributional shape except H/C and H/D and does so at +0 for single-suited and +1 for 2 or 3-suited. The H/m can usually be shown by temporizing with a 1S rebid and then...

1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N-
..............................2H-unreversed H/C and long-legged H/C
..............................etc-H/D

and...

1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-
..............................2H-unreversed H/C and long-legged H/C
..............................etc-H/D

So this leaves out H/C reversers to keep everything at +0. A reasonable question is whether to just use one's NT system after 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N. Opinions? But there's also little to be gained when responder has a double negative because this is a hand too weak to invite. Here's all that I've allowed for the DN....

1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N-
..............................2D-a DN wanting to sign off or invite with a suit
...................................2H-no super-accept in hearts
...................................2S-no super-accept in spades
...................................2N-super-accepting in both majors
........................................3m-invitational (almost impossible)
........................................3M-rejecting the invitation

The more complicated part is when opener spins off after 1C-1D and consequently shows a distributional hand.....

1C-1D,

.....1S-4+ spades but not 5332 and not four hearts
..........1N-GF relay
...............2C-clubs (so +0)
...............2D-6S single-suited or 3-suited but not 5/4 in the majors
.........................2S-3-suited
..............................3C-void hearts
..............................3D-void a minor
..............................3H-4144
..............................3S-4414
..............................3N-4441
...............etc-diamonds (so +0)
..........2C-DN, 3+ clubs
..........2D-DN, usually 6 diamonds
..........2H-DN, 6 hearts
..........2S-DN, 3+ spades
..........2N-DN, 4+ spades and shortness
..........3L-DN-3 spades and 6-cd (named) suit
..........3S-DN, 4+ spades balanced (9-loser hand)

.....1N-5+ hearts but not 5332 and not four spades (so +0)
..........2C-GF relay
..........2D-DN, 2-3 hearts
..........2H-DN, 0-1 hearts
..........2S-DN, 0-1 hearts, 6 spades
..........2N-DN, 4 hearts and shortness
..........3m-DN, 0-1 hearts, 6m
..........3H-DN, 4 hearts and balanced (9-loser hand)

.....2C-6C or 5C/4D or 5C/4H, nf
..........2D-GF relay

.....2D-6D or 5D/4C, nf (at +0)
..........2H-GF relay

.....2H-4S/5+H (5440s presented as 5431s) at +1
..........2N-GF relay

.....2S-5D/5C any strength, forcing
..........2N-GF relay
..........3m-DN

.....2N-25+

.....3C-GF, 3-suited short spades

.....3D-GF, 3-suited short hearts

.....3H-GF, 3-suited short diamonds

.....3S-GF, 3-suited short clubs

If allowed, opener can spin off additional hands after 1C-1D, 1H-1S. I'll save the 2C rebid for last...

.....2D-3-suited short spades or 4H/5D
..........2S-GF relay
.....2H-5S/4H
..........2N-GF relay
.....2S-5S/5H
..........2N-GF relay
.....2N-23-24 bal
.....3C-GF, 6C or 5C/4D or 5C/4H
..........3D-relays
.....3D-GF, 6D or 5D/4C
..........3H-relays
.....3H-GF, 5D/4H

2C auctions then...

.....2C-an invitational hand of some sort
..........2D-DN or balanced
...............2H-5S/4+H, forcing
....................2S-GF relay
...............2S-4S/5+H, forcing
....................2N-GF relay
...............2N-21-22 bal
...............3C-6C or 5C/4D or 5C/4H, nf
...............3D-6D or 5D/4C, nf
...............3H-5D/4H, nf
..........2H-H/C not reverser (as before)
..........etc-H/D

so the most problematic hands are when opener 6C or 5C/4H or 5C/4D or 6D or 5D/4C or 5D/4H and wants to be in game opposite a double negative. He has to start showing his shape then at the 3-level. This is ugly and fortunately rare.

A less noticeable but important problem is when opener has one major but not both. He starts by showing the major (1S=4+ while 1N requires 5+ hearts) and if responder shows a DN, opener may force game by bidding the other major. This bid is an impossible bid because opener has other routes to show both majors. So an auction like 1C-1D, 1S-2C, 2H is nice in that opener has started a GF but bad in that opener has only shown four spades. 2H is low enough that responder can 'fess up to having a doubleton spade but still the auction is cramped.

What I like, however, is the ability of opener to show minimum vs GI+ hands with both majors.

So for relays....

all the semipositive/light gf hands are +0 except that the balanced hands can be higher. These balanced hands are pretty limited in strength though (5-8?) which compensates a lot

all but the single-suited (which are +0) superpositive distributional hands (7+ QPs) are +1 and though they are a step higher in terms of shape, their base is higher than standard symmetric so we get that step back.

probably slightly more than half of opener's unbalanced shapes are relayed at +0 and the remainder are mostly relayed at +1.

opener's balanced hands are probably relayed at +1

[rbforster]

A little hard for me to judge in detail but I will say that there often lots of additional inferences and precision options in auctions that end in 1NT. In such situations it may well make sense to use something different than a standard strong NT system if you're willing to do the extra work to customize it. For example, I have a common 1♣ sequence that ends with opener bidding 1NT showing 16-18 bal opposite 0-7. Responder basically can't force to game on strength here, so a lot of common strong GF sequences are NF invites for us - for example, transfer to 2M then bidding 3m, or stayman followed by 3m as examples.

One other idea that sometimes helps handle the DN hands sometimes is to "fake a relay" and then pass when opener makes the expected cheapest step relay ask. So after 1C-1D(GF or DN)-1H(waiting), you have 1N as GF spades, maybe with a minor. You could also bid that with a long weak club suit and pass when opener tries to relay for shape. It may depend on exactly how limited opener is in your system, but in my system 1H is waiting but limited which makes these safe as two-way bids. If you want to include this approach and opener may still have game in his own hand, you might allow the 2nd step to be a strong relay (I.e. ...1N-2C is weak relay, NF opposite DN; while ...1N-2D is GF relay regardless).

[straube]

rbforster, on 2014-March-25, 19:55, said:

A little hard for me to judge in detail but I will say that there often lots of additional inferences and precision options in auctions that end in 1NT. In such situations it may well make sense to use something different than a standard strong NT system if you're willing to do the extra work to customize it. For example, I have a common 1♣ sequence that ends with opener bidding 1NT showing 16-18 bal opposite 0-7. Responder basically can't force to game on strength here, so a lot of common strong GF sequences are NF invites for us - for example, transfer to 2M then bidding 3m, or stayman followed by 3m as examples.

One other idea that sometimes helps handle the DN hands sometimes is to "fake a relay" and then pass when opener makes the expected cheapest step relay ask. So after 1C-1D(GF or DN)-1H(waiting), you have 1N as GF spades, maybe with a minor. You could also bid that with a long weak club suit and pass when opener tries to relay for shape. It may depend on exactly how limited opener is in your system, but in my system 1H is waiting but limited which makes these safe as two-way bids. If you want to include this approach and opener may still have game in his own hand, you might allow the 2nd step to be a strong relay (I.e. ...1N-2C is weak relay, NF opposite DN; while ...1N-2D is GF relay regardless).

So we're talking about what happens after 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N. At the moment, responder's 2C continuation is a GF relay and usually is a balanced hand (the occasional exception usually being a H/C reverser). I could switch that for Stayman, but it just seems that a 0-4 hand will so seldom need Stayman while I like being able to relay a very common (balanced 17-20) holding.

I've toyed with...

2C-GF relay
2D-0-4, transfer
2H-0-4, transfer
etc-superpositive for H/D

which would require that the superpositive H/C hands use the 2C relay....except that they might possibly be shown after 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N-2C, 2D with relay breaks of 2S+. Of course opener will not always make the relay bid of 2D.

It seems to me that a 0-4 hand cannot offer much at all except with length in the majors...so being able to transfer and then rebid to show a 2-suiter has usefulness. I could even transfer and transfer again..

For example....2H-2S, 2N showing spades and clubs. No need for a natural 2N rebid.

I think I'd rather have a clear separation between the 0-4 and the superpositives at this point in the auction. I used to use 2D as 0-4 hearts or the superpositive H/C hands and it worked but didn't feel very clean. Opener would want to super-accept and then complicate a relay auction when responder had a superpositive hand. Cross-purposed.

Using 2D as a multi bid and then having paradoxical responses seems like it ought to do the job most of the time. Adam uses 1C-1S, 2D as an unspecified long major and I think it's a great bid. Would you be concerned playing 2D as multi after 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N?

If you have any opinions on these or other choices let me know.

As far as dropping opener after 1C-1D, 1H into a part score contract, the 1H rebid handles several unlimited hands so that would be contraindicated.

[rbforster]

I don't know this system so well on the negative inferences, so maybe you could list the hand types for me that opener and responder can have after the slow auction to opener's 1NT?

I think allowing for 2 way bids like transfers with DN or GF hands can help with efficiency (so you don't have to devote as many bids to just DN signoffs or whatnot), but of course you have to plan for all contingencies in a reasonable way. I think a 2♦ multi seems fine, and is also a perfect example of a bid you could add strong hands to since opener will likely just give his preference allowing for 2N+ for relays showing that strong hand type over opener's 2M. I do think Stayman is useful with a weak hand, but perhaps not so important if you want to leave it a pure relay. If you want to show DN with both majors without getting too high, perhaps use 2♥ for that together with the 2♦ single suited major? At least this way you can stay at the two level instead of transfer to hearts and bid 2♠.

I have more to say, but I want to think about all the hand types involved before I make more suggestions.

[straube]

rbforster, on 2014-March-26, 19:34, said:

I don't know this system so well on the negative inferences, so maybe you could list the hand types for me that opener and responder can have after the slow auction to opener's 1NT?

After 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N...

opener has 17-20 with 4432, 4333, or 5332 shapes. Such patterns as 5422s, 6322s, and 4441s have other rebids.

responder may have...

1. any DN (0-4)
2. a balanced hand that plans to force game (so roughly 9+ hcps)
3. a superpositive (7+ QPs) that is two-suited with hearts and a minor
4. any GF hand that prefers to ask rather than show. These are very rare. Examples might be a freak hand 8311 or perhaps a 4441 with a stiff king or queen or maybe a 5422 that hopes to learn of a more interesting shape of opener's....

[rbforster]

Ok, thanks. so for the DN hands, you're pretty much out of game-on-power, so most likely after 1N is just signoff (often pass) or try to play in responder's long suit. I don't think we really need super accepts for transfers necessarily, at least if you include the option for responder to make an invitational move after the transfer (both get you a level too high, but the latter less often since responder will rarely have a distributional invite while opener may have a generic super accept more often). Other design goals would seem to be to show by relay the H+m GFs and allow for relay asking by a balanced or strong responder. Here are some observations:

1. I don't think you need to use 2C as your relay ask. Openers shapes are not too numerous, and more importantly his range is narrow. Even if you resolve openers shape at +1, say by asking with 2D instead, you'll get back some space when you ask for strength since since 17-20 is pretty tight for a values range. Remember too that you've very likely got extra strength on these auctions (responder is pretty strong), so figuring out the right game should be easy and there's plenty of space to look for slam.

2. If you aren't wedded to custom relay breaks by opener when responder shows a unbalanced GF, you can use these as DN transfers too. For example, lets say you want 2S+ to show the H/D hands. Then if you require opener to bid the next step (to ask further about shape) whenever responder bids 2N or 3C, now you've got a way for your DN hands to bail into 3m with a long minor at basically no cost (just giving up whatever relay breaks opener might have wanted to use there, and given his limited strength and shape, the option to break relay there doesn't seem too valuable).

I haven't thought thru everything but here's an example structure after 1N:

2C asks some question (major preference, min/max values), which is answered with 2D-2S only ala Stayman. Then:
..... p DN signoff
..... Bids up to 2N: signoffs (either DN or invite discouraged by opener's answer), or various invites by responder (system TBD here)
..... 3C+ relays showing some of the H/C hands
2D GF relay, asks for shape
2H more relays of the H/C hands (or drop dead in spades)
2S+ relays showing the H/D hands (or drop dead in 3m)

[straube]

I agree with your main points and find it interesting (and correct) that 2D could be used as GF relay...with probably slam interest in mind. I also planned to be able to drop opener into a minor after 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N-2N or 3C.

Notsure but in your specific proposal I don't think responder can sign off in hearts.

My thought is that the 2D as Multi works pretty well...except if responder wants to show a M/M or M/m 2-suited hand. I could add some complexity here...


2D-2H (not super-accepting hearts)
..........2S-spade sign off
..........2N-5/5 majors

or

2D-2H
..........2S-spade sign off
..........2N-hearts and another
...............3C-p/c
....................3D-H/D
....................3H-H/S
...............3D-paradoxical (rare)
...............etc

but is it really worth it? Seems like diminishing returns.

[rbforster]

straube, on 2014-March-27, 14:12, said:

but in your specific proposal I don't think responder can sign off in hearts.

Yes, the heart signoff hand goes through 2C. I hadn't worked out the whole suggested structure, but that's where it goes. Here's one idea:

2C asks for values/heart tolerance [5+ heart signoff, invite with 6+ major or 5/5 with a major, GF with H+C to show via relays]
....2D max short hearts, or min 3+ hearts
....2H min short hearts
....2S max 3+ hearts

Now after any of these, 3C+ shows the GF relay hands, and the other hands can bid on or signoff accordingly. My idea here is that without a major fit and a max by opener, we're basically giving up on game and trying to play either 2M or maybe 3m.

2D max short hearts or min 3+ hearts
...2H signoff (either the weak heart hand, or a 5H/5m invite giving up)
...2S 6+ spade invite (min opener will pass, max will raise)
...2N 5S/5X invite or 6+ heart invite. Asks opener to clarify
.......3C min short spades (then pass or 3m to play with 5S/5m; 3H to play with 5/5 majors or 6+ hearts; 3S strong spade invite)
.......3D max short hearts (then 3H is the heart invite, raised rarely since they could have bid 4H; 3S 5S/5X invite, raise possible)
.......3H min 3+ both major (then pass or 3S to play)

2H min short heart
...P signoff (weak hearts or heart invite giving up)
...2S signoff (6+ spades or 5S/5X giving up)
...2N relays to 3C (stronger 6+M invite or 5H/5m). After 3C,
.......P 5H/5C signoff
.......3D 5H/5D signoff
.......3M strong one-suited invite

2S max 3+ hearts (may have 3+ spades too)
...2N asks for spade length
.......3C short spades (then pass or 3X to play, better hands guess to bid 4M or not)
.......3D three spades (then 3M to play, or bid game)
.......3H four spades (pass, 3S to play, or bid game)

This does get you too high sometimes with a heart fit and extras opposite the heart signoff, but otherwise it seems to take care of everything pretty well. It is possible that trying to cater to hands that want to invite on shape despite having only 0-4 HCP are too rare to justify this much space in your bidding tree. One thing I'd suggest is working through the conditional probabilities of each of the possible responder hand types so you can think about that in judging how much bidding space to allocate to each of them.

[straube]

I think it's good. My main concerns are complexity and losing a step for the GF relay. I know we can pattern these within the space allotted, but a step can matter.

What do you think of this? The main change is not allowing a DN hand to invite with a long minor. Do you think those hands are important?

2C-GF relay

2D-a DN
.....2H-no super-accept of hearts
..........2S-sign off
..........2N-hearts and another
...............3C-p/c
....................P-H/C
....................3D-H/D
....................3H-S/H
..........3C-S/C
..........3D-S/D
..........3H-6H, invite
..........3S-6S, invite
.....paradoxical responses
2H-H/C but no reverser, superpositive
etc-H/D, superpositive

After 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N-2C

.....2D-no major
..........relay break for reverser H/C
.....2H-4H
..........relay break for reverser H/C
.....2S-4S
..........relay break for reverser H/C
.....etc
..........no more relay breaks

I feel like that's probably the best I can do with 2D multi. I could look again at...

2C-GF relay
2D-hearts
2H-spades, DN
etc-H/D superpositive

and then the question is whether to try to put the H/C in with the 2C GF relay or with the 2D bid

[rbforster]

If you want something simpler, you can certainty do that. The price is you get to the 3 level on these invites most of the time. Here many of the invites opposite a minimum stop in 2M. In answer to your question, I don't think long minor invites are worth catering to. 5m just seems so far away on these values and it's hard to run a mediocre suit and still have entries to use it when dummy only has 4 HCP.

[straube]

How would your scheme work with


2D-any minimum
2H-max, 2 hearts
2S-max, 3 hearts

but I think I like 2C as GF relay and really, I doubt to have many invitational hands or super-accepts with 17-20 opposite 0-4. I mean I as opener would probably not super-accept unless holding both 4 hearts and 19-20 so super-accepting with only 3 hearts and a max makes me nervous.

I see you're on the forum now. Care to sign in to BBO?

[yunling]

How would opener show a 21-22 count (31)(54) in this scheme?
Bid a nonforcing 2m or pretending to be balanced?

[straube]

yunling, on 2014-April-04, 07:26, said:

How would opener show a 21-22 count (31)(54) in this scheme?
Bid a nonforcing 2m or pretending to be balanced?

My general order of preference would be...

1) make an underbid of 2m. This really wins when partner has a big hand and can relay your hand. It can also win if partner can do something with a double negative (a raise being the most probable action) or is truly bankrupt. Obviously it loses if partner has a maximum DN and can't act.

2) present as balanced...so 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-2D, 2N.

3) present as an invitational hand with a minor. 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-2D, 3m. I think everyone would strain not to make this bid with only a five card suit, but the sequence doesn't promise six.

[straube]

yunling, on 2014-April-04, 07:26, said:

How would opener show a 21-22 count (31)(54) in this scheme?
Bid a nonforcing 2m or pretending to be balanced?

Your question has put me onto a modification that I think is better. I'm going to revise so that...

after 1C-1D, 1H-1S
.................................3C-GF, 6C
.................................3D-GF, 6D
.................................3H-GF, 4H/6C
.................................3S-GF, 4H/6D

and similarly after 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-2D
.................................3C-GI, 6C
.................................3D-GI, 6D
.................................3H-GI, 4H/6C
.................................3S-GI, 4H/6D

and then with the (31)(54) 21-22...they can describe themselves as balanced or they can make the underbid of 2m.

As far as the GF (31)54) I can lop them in with the 4441s.

After 1C-1D
.........................3C-GF 1444 or 13(54)
...................................3H-DN, 4 hearts
...................................3S-a superpositive, asking
...................................4H-DN, 5 hearts
...................................etc
..........................3D-GF 4144 or 31(54)
...................................3H-a superpositive, asking
...................................3S-DN, 4 spades
...................................4S-DN, 5 spades
...................................etc
.........................3H-GF 4414 or 3415
...................................3S-DN, 4 spades
...................................4D-a superpositive, asking
...................................4S-DN, 5 spades
...................................etc
.........................3S-GF 4441
...................................etc

So I think I can solve the hand on the Polish Club thread

1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-2D, 3D-3H, 4H

where 2C denotes a hand that is invitational even opposite a DN hand and 3D promises 6 diamonds.

[straube]

I did the tally for 100 hands after a 1C-1D response last night and I was pretty happy with the result. Here were opener's rebids...

1H-40
1S-21
1N-15
2C-9
2D-7
2H-7
2S-0
2N-1
etc-0

My responses to 1C are something like

1D-45
1H-21
1S-16
1N-7
2C-5
2D-2
2H-1
2S-1
etc-2