[Bad_Wolf]

imps

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[Bbradley62]

No questions, partner.

[Cyberyeti]

This is the sort of hand I do sometimes double just to try to push the opps up one, winning when it's a fit auction or a non fit with partner having enough to pass the double, and losing when partner has to bid on a misfit.

[gszes]

dbl

I have 2 kings which rate to be worth more since they are located behind
the 2 red suits. I also have 4 card support for both black suits and the
fact the opps have stopped quickly means p is not broke. While there is no
guarantee this will work or that the opps even have a heart fit it seems like
a reasonable time to back in since we are well placed and have learned a lot.

Anyone that plays this as penalty is still waiting for the right hand to show
up and they will probably never see it.

[mikeh]

To even think of bidding is an overbid.

Gimme a break...we have 12 hcp and a partner not interested in bidding, with zero assurance of any place to play, and some reason to suspect that we in fact have nowhere to play that won't fetch -500 or 800, and it is imps. Why can't LHO hold a 13 count with 4=4 blacks, as one obvious example?

I can only infer that somebody did the normal thing and it worked out poorly. If so (if one missed a playable spade or club fit) then either get over it or change to a strong 1N method, such that partner would respond in spades and/or compete in clubs. Meanwhile, having chosen a weak notrump method, bidding is an act of insanity.

Edit: I had the vulnerability wrong in my mind....there is very little risk of 800, which was based on being red. Nevertheless, altho the downside of bidding is still, imo, far to great to warrant bidding, it isn't as awful as I made it sound in the original version of this post. I still think that it is too dangerous, and not merely because we will often go -300 and not infrequently -500 against a partscore, but also because partner may leave it in, hoping for a maximum hand while we have a minimum.

Note that LHO may well have a good hand and have been intending to bid more if partner showed spades. His pass or correct sequence is not a sign of weakness in the blacks.

[PhilKing]

I'll go along with double.

[Lord Molyb]

Obvious pass.

[Cyberyeti]

 mikeh, on 2014-April-08, 16:34, said:

To even think of bidding is an overbid.

Gimme a break...we have 12 hcp and a partner not interested in bidding, with zero assurance of any place to play, and some reason to suspect that we in fact have nowhere to play that won't fetch -500 or 800, and it is imps. Why can't LHO hold a 13 count with 4=4 blacks, as one obvious example?

He can, depending on how sound and shapely the overcall needs to be by their agreement he might be inviting with that, but also he can have that same shape with an 8 count and partner with the 3442 10 count knows what to do at this vul. It's a guess, at pairs I would X automatically, at teams it's very close, but I probably still X.

Quote

I can only infer that somebody did the normal thing and it worked out poorly. If so (if one missed a playable spade or club fit) then either get over it or change to a strong 1N method, such that partner would respond in spades and/or compete in clubs. Meanwhile, having chosen a weak notrump method, bidding is an act of insanity.

Do you habitually play a weak NT ? as I'd suggest what you think as normal in this situation may not be the reality. Example if I have xx in hearts and the auction goes 1N-2H-P-P I will often X with 42(34) and have a very good record doing so.

[mikeh]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-April-08, 16:57, said:

Do you habitually play a weak NT ? as I'd suggest what you think as normal in this situation may not be the reality. Example if I have xx in hearts and the auction goes 1N-2H-P-P I will often X with 42(34) and have a very good record doing so.

Let me see: in the period 1998 - 2012, I competed 8 times for the Canadian Open Team, not being interested in playing the other years. In each event, other than 2012 (when we won playing a 15-17 notrump but our teammates played weak), my partner and I played one of 10-12, 11-13, 11-14, 12-14. In those 7 years we had 2 gold medals, 2 silver, 2 bronze and lost in the first round of the playoffs. I had 4 different partners.

So I think I have a basic familiarity with the method.

As for your suggestion that the OP situation is comparable to 1N-2H-P-P, well, I know you think of yourself as an expert. To me, the differences are profound.

Edit: I had made my original post here with the vulnerability reversed which is why I referenced going for 800 as a possibility. I have edited that post, but stick by my basic position that doubling is a big overbid...tho not as silly as it would be had we been red v white, as I had somehow seen it.

[MrAce]

I would pass

[mfa1010]

Pass but close. I would have doubled at mps.

[mycroft]

I think with double=penalty by responder, this is an obvious pass. With double=takeout, less so, but I'm still going to do it. Partner's hearts are under the long suit, and while the king is nice...Of course if my opponents are the "people opening weak NTs are trying to steal from us, so we have to bid" types, I like double - they might be on a fit, but we might still have 22 high. Yes, even at favourable.

[ggwhiz]

Let's take stock. I have a minimum with nothing extra in the way of tricks or shape yet partner isn't contesting the auction.

The only time it's right to bid is if our system and/or partner suck and only 50-50 then. With any decent methods partner is at least 4-4 in the reds with modest values or less otherwise.

[PhilG007]

I would pass and defend. Partner's silence is ominous and anyway your
opening 1NT said it all and you stuck your neck out with a weak NT to say it.
Partner's silence is ominous. The wise players know when they have been outbid
and go quietly.

[Cyberyeti]

 mikeh, on 2014-April-08, 17:18, said:

As for your suggestion that the OP situation is comparable to 1N-2H-P-P, well, I know you think of yourself as an expert. To me, the differences are profound.

Edit: I had made my original post here with the vulnerability reversed which is why I referenced going for 800 as a possibility. I have edited that post, but stick by my basic position that doubling is a big overbid...tho not as silly as it would be had we been red v white, as I had somehow seen it.

It's not exactly comparable, but it's about as likely the opps have a heart fit, possibly more and partner is less likely to have a diamond stack, and my red Ks are over the hand that's shown the suits so this makes me more likely to double. Unless partner is 3343 I'm probably in good shape to go for no more than 100 although it can clearly go wrong as often I won't be doubled when the 2♥ bidder has a good but not stellar hand and his partner is quite good but not great for the 2♦.

Edit - also I would not do it vulnerable so I understand your incredulity there.

[Codo]

I double too.

[whereagles]

Pard is marked with some cards.. yet he passed three times. I don't think I got anything to add to it.

Plus, the hand is defensive.

[rmnka447]

Partner has chosen not to bid over 1 NT, so has somewhere between 0-10 HCPs. With 11 or more, partner would surely take some invitational or stronger action over the 1 NT bid.

Partner also probably doesn't have 5 C ♠ suit or long minor either as it would be normal to sign off in them, if weak, or make a forward going bid with a better hand.

Partner also had a second chance to compete over the 2 ♥ bid and didn't do so.

So the best we can hope for is MAYBE a 4-4 black suit fit and about 22 HCP. No thanks, I'm passing. I'll accept that we may be yielding an occasional 6-7 IMP part score swing by doing so.

BUT, I won't be going for a number like I would if I wander in and find partner with very little. I also may be getting a swing by not giving the opponents a second chance to figure out they have game when we are relatively weak. (One of the most difficult games to bid for the opponents is often 3 NT.) I'm also doing Ok when nobody can make anything.