[VixTD]

weejonnie, on 2014-July-21, 12:58, said:

This is a concession - 68B1 (part of) A player concedes all the remaining tricks when he abandons the hand.

It certainly is a concession, unless North claimed first.

blackshoe, on 2014-July-21, 14:07, said:

Quote

For a statement or action to constitute a claim or concession of tricks under these Laws, it must refer to tricks other than one currently in progress

North did not claim.

Quote

Law 68A: A contestant also claims when he suggests that play be curtailed...

If the comment was a suggestion that play be curtailed then it was a claim. (I admit this is open to debate.)

[blackshoe]

VixTD, on 2014-July-22, 07:07, said:

It certainly is a concession, unless North claimed first.



If the comment was a suggestion that play be curtailed then it was a claim. (I admit this is open to debate.)

Sure, but it wasn't such a suggestion, it was a statement of fact - unless you can produce evidence from the player that he intended it as a suggestion to curtail play.

[Trinidad]

pran, on 2014-July-21, 16:21, said:

Did North really attempt to mislead East?

No, he didn't. So, the question remains: Why did North make his comment?

The answer: He attempted to curtail play.

Rik

[blackshoe]

Trinidad, on 2014-July-22, 11:05, said:

No, he didn't. So, the question remains: Why did North make his comment?

The answer: He attempted to curtail play.

Rik

I disagree.

[Trinidad]

blackshoe, on 2014-July-22, 14:48, said:

Trinidad, on 2014-July-22, 11:05, said:

pran, on 2014-July-21, 16:21, said:

Did North really attempt to mislead East?

No, he didn't. So, the question remains: Why did North make his comment?

The answer: He attempted to curtail play.

Rik

I disagree.

Would you like to tell us why you think North made his comment?

Rik

[pran]

Trinidad, on 2014-July-22, 11:05, said:

No, he didn't. So, the question remains: Why did North make his comment?

The answer: He attempted to curtail play.

Rik

blackshoe, on 2014-July-22, 14:48, said:

I disagree.

Rik may think he is correct if he believes that "curtail play" and "speed up play" are synonymous.

But in the laws "curtail play" has a very distinct meaning and the comment by North does not in any way fit this meaning.

[gordontd]

pran, on 2014-July-22, 15:47, said:

But in the laws "curtail play" has a very distinct meaning

No it doesn't. It's not defined or explained in the Laws and so it has its ordinary meaning.

[pran]

pran, on 2014-July-22, 15:47, said:

But in the laws "curtail play" has a very distinct meaning and the comment by North does not in any way fit this meaning.

gordontd, on 2014-July-23, 05:52, said:

No it doesn't. It's not defined or explained in the Laws and so it has its ordinary meaning.

Indeed.
And the ordinary meaning of "curtail" is very distinct and not in any way compatible with any meaning that can be assigned to the comment made by North.

So what is your point?

[gordontd]

pran, on 2014-July-23, 08:01, said:

Indeed.
And the ordinary meaning of "curtail" is very distinct and not in any way compatible with any meaning that can be assigned to the comment made by North.

So what is your point?

I think it's quite likely that if we asked North why he made the comment, his explanation would include something like "to save time". Since the only way it could save time is if it shortened the play period, it is entirely consistent with suggesting that play be curtailed.

[blackshoe]

Objection! Speculation.

[pran]

blackshoe, on 2014-July-23, 08:56, said:

Objection! Speculation.

And "STOP playing" is in no way compatible with "play faster"!

Besides, if you ask North I have already pointed out the more likely answer that he was "trying to help East".

[gordontd]

pran, on 2014-July-23, 09:15, said:

Besides, if you ask North I have already pointed out the more likely answer that he was "trying to help East".

To what end?

[barmar]

blackshoe, on 2014-July-22, 09:03, said:

Sure, but it wasn't such a suggestion, it was a statement of fact - unless you can produce evidence from the player that he intended it as a suggestion to curtail play.

"It's cold outside" and "it's raining" are also just statements of fact. But in an appropriate context, they're also suggestions to put on a coat or take an umbrella.

IMO, in a situation where a player is taking a long time to decide on a play, a statement like the one in the OP seems like a suggestion that it doesn't matter. I don't see how simply telling a player what's in his hand helps him or speeds up play in any other way.

[Bbradley62]

barmar, on 2014-July-23, 12:13, said:

"It's cold outside" and "it's raining" are also just statements of fact. But in an appropriate context, they're also suggestions to put on a coat or take an umbrella.

IMO, in a situation where a player is taking a long time to decide on a play, a statement like the one in the OP seems like a suggestion that it doesn't matter. I don't see how simply telling a player what's in his hand helps him or speeds up play in any other way.

Upvote!

[gnasher]

gordontd, on 2014-July-23, 08:12, said:

I think it's quite likely that if we asked North why he made the comment, his explanation would include something like "to save time". Since the only way it could save time is if it shortened the play period, it is entirely consistent with suggesting that play be curtailed.

"Curtail" implies cutting short, rather than merely speeding up. Though I don't think you agreed with me last time I said this.

[nige1]

VixTD, on 2014-July-21, 07:39, said:

After a heavy sigh from East, North says helpfully: "Oh, yes, you can't lead a diamond or a spade". (East has discarded on a diamond and ruffed a spade.) Has North claimed?

pran, on 2014-July-21, 13:56, said:

The only problem with this is that North has a good case if he states that he in no way tried to mislead East, on the contrary he tried to make life easier for him.

weejonnie, on 2014-July-21, 16:02, said:

73D2 A player may not attempt to mislead an opponent by means of remark or gesture . . . or by any purposeful deviation from correct procedure. Said procedure being a breach of law 74 B2 - As a matter of courtesy a player should refrain from making gratuitous comments during the auction or play. (As well as 74C3 - indicating the expectation or intention of winning or losing a trick that has not been completed)

pran, on 2014-July-21, 16:21, said:

Did North really attempt to mislead East?

biggerclub, on 2014-July-21, 21:23, said:

I wish no one would talk to me while I am playing cards.

blackshoe, on 2014-July-22, 09:03, said:

Sure, but it wasn't such a suggestion, it was a statement of fact - unless you can produce evidence from the player that he intended it as a suggestion to curtail play.

Trinidad, on 2014-July-22, 11:05, said:

So, the question remains: Why did North make his comment? The answer: He attempted to curtail play.

Trinidad, on 2014-July-22, 15:46, said:

Would you like to tell us why you think North made his comment?

Unless you've attended the mind-reading course for directors, it's hard to be sure why North made his comment. It's barely conceivable that North was trying to be helpful although, manifestly, his remark is gratuitous and unhelpfuI -- empty of information -- and likely to spoil East's concentration. As Weejonnie says, it flouts 73D2. North probably didn't intend his remark as a claim but it might qualify as such within the law -- and that interpretation accords with the interests of justice.

[gordontd]

gnasher, on 2014-July-23, 13:18, said:

"Curtail" implies cutting short, rather than merely speeding up. Though I don't think you agreed with me last time I said this.

No, I don't. I just don't see it. Consider if it all works as intended and speeds up play. Does it do so by making everyone play their cards faster but play the hand out until the end? Not in my opinion - in fact in the immediate term they may even slow down while they process the new information - but once they have done that and if they are satisfied with it they will... curtail play. So I think it's a suggestion that play be curtailed.

[gnasher]

gordontd, on 2014-July-24, 00:20, said:

No, I don't. I just don't see it. Consider if it all works as intended and speeds up play. Does it do so by making everyone play their cards faster but play the hand out until the end? Not in my opinion - in fact in the immediate term they may even slow down while they process the new information - but once they have done that and if they are satisfied with it they will... curtail play. So I think it's a suggestion that play be curtailed.

Sorry, I thought you and Pran were disagreeing about the meaining of "curtail".

I agree that declarer's words might well, in fact, have been intended to curtail play. They certainly had that effect.

[pran]

gnasher, on 2014-July-24, 00:55, said:

Sorry, I thought you and Pran were disagreeing about the meaining of "curtail".

I agree that declarer's words might well, in fact, have been intended to curtail play. They certainly had that effect.

I just cannot understand how North's comment can be taken as a suggestion to curtail the play (and thus being a claim), but East certainly curtailed the play (by conceeding all remaining tricks).

[gordontd]

And North's comment was a suggestion that he do that.