[Trump Echo]

Double

[MrAce]

Veteran BBF members know how much I like bidding but I would pass this. My personal experience taught me the hard way that " what if pd is trap passing" doubles are costly, when pd is 10 times or even more likely to be passing because he had nothing to say looking at my Kx in the overcall suit. So I am really not worried much about trap pass. I have a medium strength semi balanced hand that I wish I opened 1 NT, with Kx in front of the owner of this suit. It's even easier pass at IMP with downgrade and being non vuln.
This hand is a 1 NT opener for some people. Drew Casen is one of them for example. As well as myself. I know it's flawed but I will say what I said before so many times that these hands creates problems when not opened 1NT even if opponents leave you alone which they rarely do. Of course it has its own downsides but I find them more manageable.

[whereagles]

my experience of opening 1NT on hands like this is not very favourable..

[kuhchung]

I believe a long time ago, there was a thread about reopening (albeit at the 1 level) where you have Kx in their suit and otherwise fine shape, and Fred thought it was very bad to reopen. This is based on some hazy memory, so if I got it wrong, please don't sue me.

[Wayne_LV]

yunling, on 2014-July-29, 00:08, said:

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With doubleton in their suit, passing looks dangerous, but there's no convenient call I can make:(

This sequence is a potential trap pass and my regular partners and I handle is as follows:

Min hand (12-15)

Pass with 3+ of opp's suit
Double with <3 of opp's suit

Good hand (16+)

Rebid

I value this hand as 17 total points (16 hcp + 1 for 5th spade). Therefore, I would rebid 3♣ which partner can pass or make a suit preference bid of 3♠.

[thejcb]

The advanced bid is double. Why is everyone passing, just double and see what happens. They cant make game, why is this so difficult for all you beginners to understand ? bidding or pass is beginner. DOUBLE is the advanced bid, maybe your p is sitting there with 5 or 6 diamonds, he cant double can he ? so he waits for you to do it for him. Obvious and advanced bidding

[steve2005]

I vote 3♣, may end up in 3♠ when could be in 2♠. If p has a real trap (and not just a bunch of ♦) we will be in 3N. If p has 4+♥ is weak and we double will be in bad spot. p could have some clubs and was unable to show.

[PhilKing]

Double >>> 3♣. I'm not saying I would double, but the point is you can double and remove 2♥ to 2♠ to show a 5♠ 4♣ and extras (and catering to the unlikely pass, and hands that insist on hearts).

Reopening with 3♣ shows, of all things, a bunch of spades and clubs - probably 6-5.

[aguahombre]

thejcb, on 2014-July-31, 16:24, said:

The advanced bid is double. Why is everyone passing, just double and see what happens. They cant make game, why is this so difficult for all you beginners to understand ? bidding or pass is beginner. DOUBLE is the advanced bid, maybe your p is sitting there with 5 or 6 diamonds, he cant double can he ? so he waits for you to do it for him. Obvious and advanced bidding

I am surely glad we have an advanced player as a new addition to the forums. We should learn a lot.

[the hog]

mike777, on 2014-July-30, 01:59, said:

I am going to pass

call me a conservative, old fashion, whatever

No I would not call you old fashioned. I would call you sensible. This is a bad hand on which to reopen.

[wank]

reopening is poor. this isn't a great hand (kx under the bid) and partner couldn't act himself.

those hoping for partner to float it are too optimistic. partner's not got a trump stack when you have kx against an unfavourable 2 level overcall in a minor.

it's more likely we'll protect the opps into something good than do the same for ourselves. they could easily be making game in hearts - lho could be 64 or rho could have a heart suit without enough to advance.

as for 3C, that would be woefully bad.

[rhm]

PhilKing, on 2014-July-31, 16:51, said:

Double >>> 3♣. I'm not saying I would double, but the point is you can double and remove 2♥ to 2♠ to show a 5♠ 4♣ and extras (and catering to the unlikely pass, and hands that insist on hearts).

Reopening with 3♣ shows, of all things, a bunch of spades and clubs - probably 6-5.

Well what would you do with an ordinary 6♠-2♥-2♦-3♣ opening, spades not particularly strong.
I bet you would double and remove 2♥ to 2♠
I agree though that an immediate 3♣ should hint at a 5 card suit, but do not tell me that you must have 4♣s when you remove 2♥ to 2♠.
It is at least ambiguous

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

wank, on 2014-July-31, 19:20, said:

reopening is poor. this isn't a great hand (kx under the bid) and partner couldn't act himself.

those hoping for partner to float it are too optimistic. partner's not got a trump stack when you have kx against an unfavourable 2 level overcall in a minor.

it's more likely we'll protect the opps into something good than do the same for ourselves. they could easily be making game in hearts - lho could be 64 or rho could have a heart suit without enough to advance.

as for 3C, that would be woefully bad.

It may not be likely but partner could still be sitting there with ♦J9xxx, shortage in spades and a few values behind overcaller.
I consider that they have game in hearts and they will bid it, when they were prepared to play 2♦ and partner refused to raise us really remote.
But they could have a partial in hearts, we better do not double.
It might be close but letting them play 2♦ when partner has no trump stack is unlikely to be successful either and we are not vulnerable.

Rainer Herrmann

[PhilKing]

rhm, on 2014-August-01, 04:05, said:

Well what would you do with an ordinary 6♠-2♥-2♦-3♣ opening, spades not particularly strong.
I bet you would double and remove 2♥ to 2♠
I agree though that an immediate 3♣ should hint at a 5 card suit, but do not tell me that you must have 4♣s when you remove 2♥ to 2♠.
It is at least ambiguous

Rainer Herrmann

You lost your bet.

I've explained in 927 recent threads that I use these sequences to show flexible hands and not one suiters. With an ordinary 6223 I would reopen with, of all things, 2♠. IMO doubling in case partner is stacked is nuts.

Anyway, I would not double on this hand, because it is not strong enough to pull 2♥ to 2♠ (I would if the red suits were reversed) - but it unambiguously promises 4 clubs. If you don't want me to tell you that, that's too bad.

[jallerton]

Phil: what would you do with a strong 6=3=1=3 shape with decent defence?

[mikeh]

thejcb, on 2014-July-31, 16:24, said:

The advanced bid is double. Why is everyone passing, just double and see what happens. They cant make game, why is this so difficult for all you beginners to understand ? bidding or pass is beginner. DOUBLE is the advanced bid, maybe your p is sitting there with 5 or 6 diamonds, he cant double can he ? so he waits for you to do it for him. Obvious and advanced bidding

I guess I am a beginner, because pass seems clear to me.

I don't know what advanced game you play in, but in the beginner games I enjoy, the chances that partner has 5 or 6 diamonds, when a red v white opp makes a 2-level overcall, are....well....infinitesimal. Sure, he might have, say, Q10xx, but even then it is far from clear that he will or should sit for a double, especially if he has say Jxxxx in hearts or xxx in spades.

No, the percentages appear to suggest that he will be bidding 2♥ on 4 or 5 cards in the suit, and a weak hand, and won't be thrilled with a diamond lead through dummy, or that he will take a preference to 2♠ on his doubleton, and have few, if any entries, and we will be struggling to get out for -1 or 2....perhaps even on a hand on which we would go plus on defence!

Doubling, then pulling hearts to spades, shows a different hand. PhilKing may disagree, and maybe in his partnerships his experience is that he can bid this way. However, most experienced beginners would treat that sequence the way jallerton suggests: 2♠ shows a good hand with 6 spades, and is prototypically 6=3=1=3.

Btw, this is a recurring theme in real life, especially with advanced players, who have learned that one should stretch to reopen when playing negative doubles, and haven't yet learned to recognize exceptions to that rule. This is one of them, imo.

[PhilKing]

jallerton, on 2014-August-01, 12:32, said:

Phil: what would you do with a strong 6=3=1=3 shape with decent defence?

Double then 3♦ shows that hand for me.

[lamford]

Zelandakh, on 2014-July-29, 03:01, said:

What is inconvenient about a double?

Indeed; as my late friend Bob Brinig would say, it saves a trip to the bar. I would pass on this hand, however. Whenever I bid my partner has a 2-5-4-2 one count.