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We encountered this problem some time ago and were unable to resolve it. In one Sims event a board was played at one table for the first time. Players had been asked to check the travellers at the end of play to ensure the that the hands had been correctly recorded. It had not and it was necessary to cancel the hand and make the necessary correction for future play. Both pairs were given an average plus because they were not to blame for this error. At the end of play it was noted that everybody had bid and made 3NT. Without the error everybody would have got an average score. Many players felt that average plus should not have been awarded. What do you think?
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Sims problem
#2
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Posted 2014-September-11, 08:12
The laws are quite clear on this, if there is no fault on either side it should be ave+/ave+ as awarded.
I agree with this, in pretty much any field I've been in I've seen some 'usual' scores, and even boards which might seem like they are likely to be completely flat often have one or more scores that are not the same. Even if there is little chance of more than the nine tricks in NT, people make mistakes, there could be a mess up in the bidding leading to a different contract, the defence could be abysmal and so coudl the declarer play, someone could play the wrong card, revoke, or make any of a hundred different mistakes. All of these things happen regulaly even on the simplest of boards. By not being able to play the boad both partnerships have been denied the opportunity for a brilliancy, or a mistake from their opponants. Average plus seems fair even on the flattest boards.
I agree with this, in pretty much any field I've been in I've seen some 'usual' scores, and even boards which might seem like they are likely to be completely flat often have one or more scores that are not the same. Even if there is little chance of more than the nine tricks in NT, people make mistakes, there could be a mess up in the bidding leading to a different contract, the defence could be abysmal and so coudl the declarer play, someone could play the wrong card, revoke, or make any of a hundred different mistakes. All of these things happen regulaly even on the simplest of boards. By not being able to play the boad both partnerships have been denied the opportunity for a brilliancy, or a mistake from their opponants. Average plus seems fair even on the flattest boards.
#3
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Posted 2014-September-12, 08:48
One of the things about bridge is that you sometimes get good scores through no special effort of your own. Usually it's because your opponents gave you a gift, but in this case the gift came from whoever made the board. Stuff happens.
#4
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Posted 2014-September-12, 14:49
I would suggest that the "+" for each side come from the table that fouled the board. If that's the TD - well, I guess they owe the room one.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
#5
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Posted 2014-September-12, 15:42
In response to the OP, I agree with A+ to both sides. I also agree that stuff happens, and that when it does, players should just accept it and move on. As for "the table that fouled the board," as I read the OP, there wasn't one.
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#6
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Posted 2014-September-17, 12:21
Happened last night at our Club (or something similar)
Initially we were playing a 9.5 table movement and our first board was board 10.
Bidding (1 Diamond: 2 Clubs: 2 Diamonds: 2 Hearts: Pass: 5 Clubs)
At which point another pair walked in and the Director switched to a 10 table Mitchell, meaning the boards were moved.
Several rounds later we come to play board 10 again. So I call the TD and explain the position and, (to speed up time although technically I shouldn't) the correct procedure.
Bidding (1 Diamond: 2 Clubs: 2 Diamonds: 2 SPADES: Pass: 4 SPADES)
Board has to be cancelled (auction different). We played it for fun and 4 Spades made exactly. This would have scored below average for NS and above average for us as EW.
Since neither side was at fault the Director (correctly IMHO) scored it as av+ av+.
At the end of the evening NS and EW were tied on the same percentage. (Really!) So had the board not been av+sd we would have been one place higher. I have no complaints, the ruling was correct.
What surprised me is that no OTHER pair called the director! Maybe we were just too quick.
Initially we were playing a 9.5 table movement and our first board was board 10.
Bidding (1 Diamond: 2 Clubs: 2 Diamonds: 2 Hearts: Pass: 5 Clubs)
At which point another pair walked in and the Director switched to a 10 table Mitchell, meaning the boards were moved.
Several rounds later we come to play board 10 again. So I call the TD and explain the position and, (to speed up time although technically I shouldn't) the correct procedure.
Bidding (1 Diamond: 2 Clubs: 2 Diamonds: 2 SPADES: Pass: 4 SPADES)
Board has to be cancelled (auction different). We played it for fun and 4 Spades made exactly. This would have scored below average for NS and above average for us as EW.
Since neither side was at fault the Director (correctly IMHO) scored it as av+ av+.
At the end of the evening NS and EW were tied on the same percentage. (Really!) So had the board not been av+sd we would have been one place higher. I have no complaints, the ruling was correct.
What surprised me is that no OTHER pair called the director! Maybe we were just too quick.
No matter how well you know the laws, there is always something that you'll forget. That is why we have a book.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
The hardest rulings are inevitably as a result of failure of being called at the correct time. ALWAYS penalize both sides if this happens.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
The hardest rulings are inevitably as a result of failure of being called at the correct time. ALWAYS penalize both sides if this happens.
#7
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Posted 2014-September-17, 13:41
weejonnie, on 2014-September-17, 12:21, said:
Happened last night at our Club (or something similar)
Initially we were playing a 9.5 table movement and our first board was board 10.
[...]
At which point another pair walked in and the Director switched to a 10 table Mitchell, meaning the boards were moved.
Several rounds later we come to play board 10 again. So I call the TD and explain the position and, (to speed up time although technically I shouldn't) the correct procedure.
[...]
Initially we were playing a 9.5 table movement and our first board was board 10.
[...]
At which point another pair walked in and the Director switched to a 10 table Mitchell, meaning the boards were moved.
Several rounds later we come to play board 10 again. So I call the TD and explain the position and, (to speed up time although technically I shouldn't) the correct procedure.
[...]
Me very confused.
Are the Mitchell movements of boards and pairs for 9.5 tables and 10 tables not identical except for the fact that there is one sitout in the first case?
Why did boards have to be moved?
#8
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Posted 2014-September-17, 16:18
pran, on 2014-September-17, 13:41, said:
Me very confused.
Are the Mitchell movements of boards and pairs for 9.5 tables and 10 tables not identical except for the fact that there is one sitout in the first case?
Why did boards have to be moved?
Are the Mitchell movements of boards and pairs for 9.5 tables and 10 tables not identical except for the fact that there is one sitout in the first case?
Why did boards have to be moved?
It seems that the initial movement was not a Mitchell movement, but a Howell or something else. It is still a mystery why the boards were moved.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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