[GreenMan]

aguahombre, on 2015-February-14, 08:40, said:

The two common theories about the word "paddy wagon" are that they were named for the predominately Irish cops who drove them or for the predominately Irish drunks who rode in them.

Yep, it's hard to claim that it's an oppressive term when it's likely named for the people in power at the time.

[aguahombre]

GreenMan, on 2015-February-14, 10:29, said:

Yep, it's hard to claim that it's an oppressive term when it's likely named for the people in power at the time.

However, the term "paddy" did evolve into a racist thing. Blacks used it to refer to whites -- Irish or not; but, it wasn't a venomous reference -- more benign than things whites called blacks.

[hrothgar]

GreenMan, on 2015-February-14, 10:29, said:

Yep, it's hard to claim that it's an oppressive term when it's likely named for the people in power at the time.

Regardless of whether or not this was true, the original claim was that this term was racist.

Moreover, there is considerable debate whether the expression referred to the individuals driving the van or locked up in the van.

[kenberg]

Intent perhaps matters here. We should try not to insult people unintentionally, but if it happens maybe we can be forgiven.But, at least sometimes, we should correct ourselves in the future.

Example: I assume that the Stevie Nicks song Gypsy does not intend to insult anyone. Still, we might consider the stereotype.

Example: Locally, the Washington football team is getting a lot of criticism for being the Redskins. Maybe no offense was intended, but the fans dress in ridiculous Indian (make that Native American) costumes and I can see how it could be insulting. I have suggested that we regard redskin as referring to a potato and simply change the name to the Washington Potatoes.

Anyway, I can never really remember which slang term goes with which national origin so I would look not only insulting but foolish if I trotted them out.

[barmar]

I remember when I was a kid we called someone who took back a gift an "Indian giver". I assume the origin of the term was racist, based on some stereotype of Native Americans reneging on promises (ironic, since most of the history of whites vs. Indians involved us putting them down and breaking old promises). But to us kids it was just a random idiom, we didn't know anything about where it came from, and it didn't make us think worse of Indians (at least, no more so than the cowboy pictures did).

[blackshoe]

According to Wikipedia, the phrase grew out of a cultural misunderstanding.

The article also references a couple of books that apparently are aimed at teaching us how to be politically correct in our speech and writing.

[kenberg]

I took Spanish in the early 1950s. I won't embarrass myself by trying to say it in Spanish, but I was taught that it was common, when someone expressed admiration for a possession such ad a painting, for the owner to say "it is yours". This was not to be taken literally. The correct response was "It couldn't have a better owner". I have never encountered this practice, so perhaps it was just one of those things written in 1950s textbooks, akin to George Washington and the cherry tree.

Who owns what can get tricky, and old decisions still have power. A friend grew up in Onamia Minnesota on Mille Lacs Lake (yes, Nille Lacs Lake is a bit redundant but no one worried about this). He is no longer living but he was my first source of information on the following: Some years back the Indians decided to bring the treaty documents, concerning Mille Lacs and other areas, that they had signed into court to receive what they had been promised. It has been an ongoing battle with, I believe, the Indians being largely successful. Both fishing rights and the harvesting of wild rice are involved. The link at http://www.glifwc.or..._Supplement.pdf will give you more information than you (or at least I) can comfortably digest.

The conflict of rights has many variants. Long ago I heard a recital of the poem "Forty Acres and a Mule", referring to the promise made to the freed slaves after the Civil War. A portion that I remember goes:

I'll take myself to lunch
I'll build my own swimming pool
Please just tell me when
I get my forty acres and a mule

[Bbradley62]

barmar, on 2015-February-14, 23:25, said:

I remember when I was a kid we called someone who took back a gift an "Indian giver". I assume the origin of the term was racist, based on some stereotype of Native Americans reneging on promises (ironic, since most of the history of whites vs. Indians involved us putting them down and breaking old promises). But to us kids it was just a random idiom, we didn't know anything about where it came from, and it didn't make us think worse of Indians (at least, no more so than the cowboy pictures did).

Apparently, we're also not allowed to say that we sat "Indian style".

[kenberg]

As with most issues of proper behavior, there are arbitrary lines. Here is one that puzzles me:

I saw Song of the South, I suppose when it came out in 1946. James rasket is Uncle Remus, a kindly old black man who tells stories to the children about Br'er Rabbit, Br'er Fox and others. You can't easily find it, and it is never on television, at least not that I have seen. I can understand this. But now shift to Gone With the Wind, with Butterfly McQueen in the role of Prissy. I have heard no complaints. I don't get it. OK, Wind is presumably better than South. Still, I don't get it.

The Bojangles number of Swingtime is a very interesting case. I saw it described somewhere as the only blackface number a person can watch today without cringing in embarrassment. Here are the comments from the Wikipedia:

Quote

"Bojangles of Harlem": Once again, Kern, Bennett and Borne combined their talents to produce a jaunty instrumental piece ideally suited to Astaire, who here – while overtly paying tribute to Bill Robinson – actually broadens his tribute to African-American tap dancers by dancing in the style of Astaire's one-time teacher John W. Bubbles, and dressing in the style of the character Sportin' Life, whom Bubbles played the year before in Gershwin's Porgy and Bess. Dorothy Fields recounts how Astaire managed to inspire the reluctant Kern by visiting his home and singing while dancing on and around his furniture. It is the only number in which Astaire – again bowler-hatted – appears in blackface. The idea of using trick photography to show Astaire dancing with three of his shadows was invented by Hermes Pan, who also choreographed the opening chorus, after which Astaire dances a short opening solo which features poses mimicking, perhaps satirising, Al Jolson – all of which was captured by Stevens in one take. There follows a two-minute solo of Astaire dancing with his shadows which took three days to shoot. Astaire's choreography exercises every limb and makes extensive use of hand-clappers. This routine earned Hermes Pan an Academy Award nomination for Best Dance Direction.

Again I think that intent matters, and the excerpt above seems to go with that. I was interested to see the reference to John Bubbles, since I believe I met him once. He was very proud of his role as Sportin Life.

And then, of course, Porgy and Bess is a whole 'nother story. I saw it live at the Kennedy Center long ago. I can't recall who played Bess, but when she started things off with Summertime I was overwhelmed. I have never thought of that song in the same way since. I can understand objections to the portrayals, but still... ..

This whole thing is a mine field. I think it is essential to try to discern intent, but there is more to it than that.

[barmar]

Bbradley62, on 2015-February-15, 10:14, said:

Apparently, we're also not allowed to say that we sat "Indian style".

Is it "kingdomist" to refer to it as the Lotus position?

[barmar]

kenberg, on 2015-February-15, 15:09, said:

As with most issues of proper behavior, there are arbitrary lines. Here is one that puzzles me:

I saw Song of the South, I suppose when it came out in 1946. James rasket is Uncle Remus, a kindly old black man who tells stories to the children about Br'er Rabbit, Br'er Fox and others. You can't easily find it, and it is never on television, at least not that I have seen. I can understand this. But now shift to Gone With the Wind, with Butterfly McQueen in the role of Prissy. I have heard no complaints. I don't get it. OK, Wind is presumably better than South. Still, I don't get it.

A signifiant difference is that Song of the South is an animated film aimed at children, while Gone with the Wind is for adults. Adults should be better at understanding the cultural context of the film (both when it was made and where it's set). Additionally, their attitudes are mostly set -- you don't have to worry about a film influencing their racial biases during formative years.

Also, Song of the South is not generally considered one of Disney's better movies. So they're willing to leave it on the shelf rather than try to deal with the archaic attitudes it expresses.

[kenberg]

It seems likely that ", Song of the South is not generally considered one of Disney's better movies" stems more than a little from the Uncle Remus portrayal. I and my fellow 7 year olds liked it. I have been trying to recall black actors and actresses from thos days, and my childhood reaction to them. I have come up with three cases.

Uncle Remus in Song of the South
I just remember enjoying the movie.

Ella Fitzgerald singing a tisket a tasket in something.
I had always thought I saw this in Buck Privates Come Home but the net doesn't list her as being in it. She was in a different Abbott and Costello movie, Ride 'em Cowboy, maybe that was it. Whatever the case her singing is the only part of the movie that I remember, and it is not at all because she was black.

Old Charlie Chan movies.
At least if I remember correctly, some of these had a black character as well as Chan and his three sons.
My recollection is that these appearances were by far the most racially offensive. They were meant to be funny but I (perhaps I ever-estimate myself here) don't remember liking them even then.

No doubt the Tarzan movies had parts involving natives, but nothing stands out.

Various movies affected me, the strongest affect I recall came from a Tarzan movie with a man-eating plant. I kept my distance from shrubbery for weeks after that.

[ArtK78]

kenberg, on 2015-February-16, 07:55, said:

Ella Fitzgerald singing a tisket a tasket in something.
I had always thought I saw this in Buck Privates Come Home but the net doesn't list her as being in it. She was in a different Abbott and Costello movie, Ride 'em Cowboy, maybe that was it. Whatever the case her singing is the only part of the movie that I remember, and it is not at all because she was black.

http://www.ellafitzg...ilmography.html

You got it. According to this website, Ella Fitzgerald sang A-Tisket A-Tasket on board a bus in Ride 'Em Cowboy. The paragraph about this scene also says that she took her seat at the very back of the bus as soon as she was done singing the song. This was 1942.

[aguahombre]

IMO, Paul Robeson has them all beat.

It is absolutely the only thing I remember about "Showboat".

There is a video of his opening "Ol Man River", for which I would have provided a link. But, the combination of my Yahoo search and the actual site created a broken link.

Maybe this adds nothing to a thread on racism; but, it might add to your entertainment.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2015-February-16, 10:25

[kenberg]

ArtK78, on 2015-February-16, 09:21, said:

http://www.ellafitzg...ilmography.html

You got it. According to this website, Ella Fitzgerald sang A-Tisket A-Tasket on board a bus in Ride 'Em Cowboy. The paragraph about this scene also says that she took her seat at the very back of the bus as soon as she was done singing the song. This was 1942.

I remember her standing, while singing, in the back of the bus. I don't remember her as having any role at all in the movie, other than singing. And I can't say why I know it was Ella Fitzgerald. Probably because tiske was one of her well known songs.

Aside: Alexandri Petri had a recent column discussing memory. Roughly quoting her " I remember my sister hitting me on one of our family trips in the car. My sister remembers being in a helicopter, shot down by a rocket propelled grenade."

I was 3 in 1942. I am thinking that I must have seen it (Cowboy) later. 7 seems right for Song of the South, though. I see that Bambi also came out in 1942 and I saw that, I am sure, when I was very young. Maybe even when I was 3. Could be, But I hadn't thought i was that young, I gave up hunting in my 20s. I don't really think it was because I saw Bambi as a child. I just figured I was a city kid who should quit pretending he was Daniel Boone before I killed someone.

I want to go back for a moment to the difficulty of addressing our racial problems. We live near McDaniel College and I see there are to be some discussions there about the use of "the N-word". OK, but I have never used it in my life and I never heard my father use it. I was born in 1939 and my father in 1900, so that covers a lot of years. I am thinking the kids at McDaniel are mostly a bunch of white kids coming from backgrounds of far greater means than mine, and they don't use or encounter the word either. So what will be accomplished? A lot of white kids will learn that the problems we have are that someone else, someone they don't at all know, uses words that they themselves would never use. Is this going to help? We have met the enemy and it is someone else.

[cherdano]

There were two recent This American Life episodes called "Cops see it differently". Very good.

[y66]

From What Came Before Baltimore’s Riots on yesterday's NYT editorial page:

Quote

The riots that devastated urban America during the 1960s were often ignited by acts of police brutality that inflamed poor African-American communities where the police were seen not as protectors but as an occupying force. These same tensions resurfaced last year in the suburban St. Louis community of Ferguson, Mo., where riots broke out after a white police officer shot and killed Michael Brown, a black teenager. They have now erupted on a larger stage, in Baltimore, after the death of Freddie Gray, a young black man who suffered a catastrophic injury while in police custody.

President Obama has condemned as inexcusable the looting and arson that spread across the face of the city after of Mr. Gray’s funeral. But he also implied that the Baltimore Police Department had “to do some soul-searching.” Indeed it does: A well-documented history of extreme brutality and misconduct set the stage for just this kind of unrest.

Proof can be found in a meticulously reported investigation by The Baltimore Sun of lawsuits and settlements that had been generated by police-brutality claims. “Over the past four years,” the investigation noted, “more than 100 people have won court judgments or settlements related to allegations of brutality and civil rights violations.” The victims included a 15-year-old boy riding a dirt bike, a 26-year-old pregnant woman who had witnessed a beating, a 50-year-old woman selling church raffle tickets, a 65-year-old church deacon and an 87-year-old grandmother aiding her wounded grandson.

The report, published last fall, detailed what it called “a frightful human toll” inflicted by the police: broken bones, head trauma, organ failure, and even death, occurring during questionable arrests. It found that judges and prosecutors routinely dismissed charges against the victims and that city policies helped to hide the extent of the human damage. Settlements prohibited the victims from making public statements. The Sun estimated that the cash-strapped city had spent $5.7 million on settlements and $5.8 million on legal fees since January 2011.

Baltimore residents were familiar with these and other stories of police abuse when Mr. Gray’s case fell into the public spotlight earlier this month. The police chased and apprehended him on April 12, allegedly because he had “made eye contact” with a lieutenant and then ran away. Cellphone videos of his arrest showed him being dragged into a police van, appearing limp and screaming in pain. The police have acknowledged that they delayed in calling for medical help. When he arrived at the police station, medics rushed him to the hospital, where he slipped into a coma and died a week later.

His family has said that 80 percent of his spinal cord was severed and that his larynx had been crushed. This account is at odds with a police report claiming that “the defendant was arrested without force or incident.”

The Baltimore Police Department has a particularly egregious history and has entered into a voluntary reform agreement with the Justice Department. But there is no reason to believe that it is unique in terms of its toxic relations with the people it is meant to protect.

Indeed, over the last five years, the Justice Department has opened 21 investigations into local police departments around the country and is enforcing reform agreements with 15 departments, some investigated by previous administrations.

Mr. Obama was right on the mark when he observed on Tuesday that tensions with law enforcement had simmered in African-American communities for decades and now seemed to be bursting into view once a week.

“This has been a slow-rolling crisis,” he said. “This has been going on for a long time. This is not new, and we shouldn’t pretend that it’s new.”

He also said that addressing the problem would require not only new police tactics but new policies aimed at helping communities where jobs have disappeared, improving education and helping ex-offenders find jobs. The big mistake, he said, is that we tend to focus on these communities only when buildings are burning down.

From today's Baltimore Sun:

Quote

Tensions remained high in Baltimore Tuesday as crowds again clashed with police, who patrolled city streets with National Guard soldiers to maintain order and enforce a citywide curfew.

... Other precautions were taken to reduce crowds downtown through the week. The Orioles will play the White Sox Wednesday in an empty Camden Yards as the public was banned from attending for the first time in baseball history. The long-standing FlowerMart fair in Mount Vernon, scheduled for this weekend, was postponed.

Rawlings-Blake and Gov. Larry Hogan, who moved his office and Cabinet to the city Tuesday after declaring a state of emergency, toured neighborhoods damaged in the riots and coordinated a massive law enforcement response.

"You can't ensure that there's not going to be any unrest. I'm not a magician," Hogan said. "What I can assure you is that we will put all the resources that we have at our disposal to make sure that disturbances don't get out of hand."

...Baltimore has drawn international attention since the April 12 death of 25-year-old Freddie Gray, who suffered spinal cord and other injuries in police custody. His funeral took place Monday hours before rioting broke out.

On Tuesday, President Barack Obama called rioters "criminals" and "thugs" even as he argued that broader social change was needed to address underlying tensions in the African American community.

"If we are serious about solving this problem, then we're going to need to not only help the police, we're going to have to think about what we can do — the rest of us," Obama said during a Rose Garden press conference.

"That's hard," he said.

Meanwhile, City Council members joined gang members to call for peace, and dance troupes entertained crowds in front of City Hall.

Rawlings-Blake urged people to share positive images of Baltimore on social media under the hashtag #thisisbaltimore. Unlike Obama, she backed away from her claim that it was "thugs" who had caused problems in the city the day prior.

"We don't have thugs in Baltimore," the mayor said. "We have a lot of kids that are acting out, a lot of people in our community who are acting out, and the bad part of it is, we all know that on the other side of this they are going to regret what they've done."

Earlier, the Rev. Frank Reid III of Bethel AME Church, said "there are no thugs in Baltimore."

"There are abused children, who are being abused by the cutbacks in education, cutbacks in housing. Abused people become abusers."

...A number of high-profile politicians and celebrities called for peace.

Former Ravens linebacker Ray Lewis released a video in which he animatedly urges an end to the rioting. He said he would delay a planned trip to Chicago to help stop the violence, and the Ravens canceled a Thursday night party for the NFL draft.

Across the city, residents pledged to do their part.

Volunteers from Empowerment Temple handed out slices of Little Caesars Pizza, bottles of water and bags of chips to the crowd gathered at the intersection of Pennsylvania and North avenues.

While some in the crowd danced and sang, others urged violence, shouting, "Light it up," and police used pepper spray to quell skirmishes.

From David Simon blogging at The Audacity of Despair:

Quote

Yes, there is a lot to be argued, debated, addressed. And this moment, as inevitable as it has sometimes seemed, can still, in the end, prove transformational, if not redemptive for our city. Changes are necessary and voices need to be heard. All of that is true and all of that is still possible, despite what is now loose in the streets.

From "The Wire" season 1, episode 1:

Quote

Kima: Fighting the war on drugs... one brutality case at a time.
Carver: Girl, you can't even think of calling this ***** a war.
Herc: Why not?
Carver: Wars end.

Bill Keller interviews David Simon at The Marshall Project.

[kenberg]

possibly it will become clear just how the young man died. Or maybe it won't. I'll make a guess that there will be a lawsuit leading to a very substantial settlement but no criminal charges. Of course it depends on just what is uncovered, but when the police take someone into custody, putting him in handcuffs and into a van, they assume some responsibility for his safety.

There is a massive problem. An excerpt from an article in the Post

Quote

In 2008, a lead-paint lawsuit was filed on behalf of Gray and two of his sisters against the owners of the home in which they grew up. Court papers described his difficult upbringing: a disabled mother addicted to heroin who, in a deposition, said she couldn’t read; walls and windowsills containing enough lead to poison the children and leave them incapable of leading functional lives; a young man who was four grade levels behind in reading.

Such lawsuits are so common in Gray’s neighborhood that the resulting settlement payments — which Gray lived off — are known as “lead checks.”


Close friends of Gray, who was 5-foot-8 and 145 pounds, described him as loyal and warm, humorous and happy. “Every time you saw him, you just smiled, because you knew you were going to have a good day,” said Angela Gardner, 22, who had dated him off and on over the past two years.

But Gray also had frequent run-ins with the law.


Court records show he was arrested more than a dozen times, and had a handful of convictions, mostly on charges of selling or possessing heroin or marijuana. His longest stint behind bars was about two years.

Regardless of the details, known or unknown, of this specific case the broad fact seems to be that there are many young people who grow up in such an environment. What on earth can be done?

Cops have to be controlled, no doubt about that. I don't know if they broke his spine and really, at this stage no one knows. Maybe they are criminally liable, maybe they hurt him more than they realized during the arrest and the trip in the van did him in, I don't know. But Mr. Gray's life was going badly.

A friend of Becky's had a frightened call call from someone in the neighborhood where the riots were taking place. Becky's friend Ann is, I guess some sort of mentor. The call was not about how awful the police are but how scared she was. And Ann's view of the neighborhood environment was pretty pessimistic.

There are always people who miraculously escape the worst possible environments. But statistically speaking, the results are predictable. Investigate what happened? Sure. Prosecute as needed? Sure. But as long as we have sizable neighborhoods where the kids are brought up, if that phrase can even be used, by drug addicted mothers living in poverty, the results will not be good.

Solutions are badly needed. I also think they are hard to find.

[y66]

There are some indications that momentum is building on the decriminalization of drugs, sentencing and criminal justice system reform fronts, for example:

Quote

NYT Feb 18, 2015 WASHINGTON — Usually bitter adversaries, Koch Industries and the Center for American Progress have found at least one thing they can agree on: The nation’s criminal justice system is broken.

Koch Industries, the conglomerate owned by the conservative Koch brothers, and the center, a Washington-based liberal issues group, are coming together to back a new organization called the Coalition for Public Safety. The coalition plans a multimillion-dollar campaign on behalf of emerging proposals to reduce prison populations, overhaul sentencing, reduce recidivism and take on similar initiatives. Other groups from both the left and right — the American Civil Liberties Union, Americans for Tax Reform, the Tea Party-oriented FreedomWorks — are also part of the coalition, reflecting its unusually bipartisan approach.

Organizers of the advocacy campaign, which is to be announced on Thursday, consider it to be the largest national effort focused on the strained prison and justice system. They also view the coalition as a way to show lawmakers in gridlocked Washington that factions with widely divergent views can find ways to work together and arrive at consensus policy solutions.

“We want to both do good policy work and try to improve the system, but also to send the message to politicians that we always ask you to work together, and we are going to lead the way,” said Denis Calabrese, the president of the Laura and John Arnold Foundation, who helped organize the coalition.

For groups traditionally considered opponents, working together has required something of a leap of faith. But they say that they see an opening and are giving the new coalition three years to demonstrate results.

“A lot of people throw a lot of things around, and then you try to get things done,” said Mark Holden, general counsel for Koch Industries, which has been the subject of fierce attacks from the left and has responded in kind. “We are just going to put it to the side and hopefully they will as well. We have said all along that we are willing to work with anyone and this shows it.”

Officials at the Center for American Progress said that they did not make the decision to join the partnership lightly given the organization’s clashes and deep differences with both Koch Industries and many of the conservative groups.

“We have in the past and will in the future have criticism of the policy agenda of the Koch brother companies, but where we can find common ground on issues, we will go forward,” said Neera Tanden, the president of the center. “I think it speaks to the importance of the issue.”

With the huge costs to the public of an expanding 2.2 million-person prison population drawing interest from the right and the conviction that the system is unfair and incarcerating too many drug and nonviolent offenders driving those on the left, the new coalition is the most recent example of ideological opposites joining together.

Last year, Senators Cory Booker, Democrat of New Jersey, and Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky, together wrote legislation aimed at helping nonviolent offenders seal their records. This month, Senator John Cornyn of Texas, the No. 2 Republican in the Senate, and Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat of Rhode Island, introduced legislation aimed at cutting prison populations by allowing eligible prisoners to reduce their time.

The coalition’s goal is to leverage the broad reach of the group’s partners and financial backers to build public support for overhaul efforts through research and education campaigns, among other initiatives. The ideological spread should also allow them to reach out credibly to lawmakers of both parties.

[y66]

So why don't we have a rational drug policy? From Mother Jones:

Quote

So why don't we have a rational drug policy? Simple. Forget the Social Security "third rail." The quickest way to get yourself sidelined in serious policy discussion is to stray from drug war orthodoxy. Even MoJo has skirted the topic for fear of looking like a bunch of hot-tubbing stoners. Such is the power of the culture wars, 50 years on.

There is some hope. We have, at long last, a post-boomer president, one who confidently admits he partook back in the day. And while Barack Obama has said he's not interested in overhauling drug policy, his administration has made moves toward honesty—acknowledging that US demand fuels overseas production, that federal raids on medical marijuana dispensaries are a waste of time and money, and that treatment should be our top priority; the Pentagon has even said that Mexico rivals Pakistan atop the list of states most likely to fail. There are other signs of a thaw: Those noted hippies at The Economist and Foreign Policy have called for ending "prohibition at any cost." Drug warrior Bob Barr is lobbying for the Marijuana Policy Project. And Joe Biden—who helped create the 100:1 crack-vs.-coke sentencing disparity—has finally issued a mea culpa.

There! Say-it-ain't-so-Joe has said it.