[mike777]

this just came up on jec:


1d=(1h)=2c=p
2s=p=?


1) what does 2s show? is 2s gf or much less?
2) How do you game force with: AQ9...KJ73...7....AQ632

[the hog]

Clearly a gf. 2/1 and opener reverses!
How do you force to game? Well as you are in a gf situation you could just bid 2NT followed by 3NT over 3D and make some stronger noise over 3C. If you believe for some weird reason that you are not in a gf, just bid 3NT.

[mike777]

the hog, on 2015-January-02, 20:43, said:

Clearly a gf. 2/1 and opener reverses!
How do you force to game? Well as you are in a gf situation you could just bid 2NT followed by 3NT. If you believe for some weird reason that you are not in a gf, just bid 3NT.

ok but you would have opened 1s(5-6) not 1d so

In any case yes I also thought 2s WAS GF BUT clearly at the table the star playing with star did not and neither did the kibs.

[Phil]

http://bridgewinners...g-problem-6664/

[the hog]

Phil, on 2015-January-02, 22:18, said:

http://bridgewinners...g-problem-6664/

"ok but you would have opened 1s(5-6) not 1d so "
I don't think that is the hand Phil.

[mike777]

At both tables with 5-6 they opened 1d

http://www.bridgebas...65&username=jec


but that is not my question..


My question regards


1d=(1h)=2c=p
2s=p=?

[Phil]

the hog, on 2015-January-02, 23:13, said:

"ok but you would have opened 1s(5-6) not 1d so "
I don't think that is the hand Phil.

Ron, Mike and I were discussing this hand in JEC spec and this auction came up. I contend that 2♠ can't show extras because you have to cater to this common hand type.

[mike777]

Phil, on 2015-January-02, 23:23, said:

Ron, Mike and I were discussing this hand in JEC spec and this auction came up. I contend that 2♠ can't show extras because you have to cater to this common hand type.

right


My point was 2nt now could not be passed after that start...many if not most disagreed.
2) if 2nt can be passed we need some bid below 3nt to force

AQ9...KJ73...7....AQ632

[the hog]

Phil, on 2015-January-02, 23:23, said:

Ron, Mike and I were discussing this hand in JEC spec and this auction came up. I contend that 2♠ can't show extras because you have to cater to this common hand type.

Sorry Phil I am lost here. I don't see what relevance Mike's 6D/5S comment has to the hand in your link. That is why I thought that was not the hand being discussed. Excuse me if I am being obtuse, but....
Any regarding the hand you posted, I would certainly still regard 2S as a reverse and hence GF. As I said, I would have to bid 2D playing this style. Ugly I know, but is it any less ugly than bidding 2S? 2NT is a possibility but I hate it with no stopper. Good argument for the wnt though.

[Phil]

the hog, on 2015-January-03, 00:16, said:

Sorry Phil I am lost here. I don't see what relevance Mike's 6D/5S comment has to the hand in your link. That is why I thought that was not the hand being discussed. Excuse me if I am being obtuse, but....
Any regarding the hand you posted, I would certainly still regard 2S as a reverse and hence GF. As I said, I would have to bid 2D playing this style. Ugly I know, but is it any less ugly than bidding 2S? 2NT is a possibility but I hate it with no stopper. Good argument for the wnt though.

The fact the auction is the same in both threads should be a clue.

It really doesn't matter what the hands are that are being bid. Whats relevant is the interpretation of opener's rebids and the subsequent development of the auction.

Agree that a weak NT would help things here, but that also affects what a 2♣ call looks like too.

[mike777]

Phil your example presents many issues:
1) many may not open your hand, balanced 12
2) If they do open, 2c may be a NFB, not forcing

----


for me I open and play nfb

OTOH if 2c is forcing one round...I pass and do not open
If I open and pard bids a forcing 2c I bid a confusing 2h with a problem hand, 2s=gf


I guess playing unbalanced 1d I can pass or open 1c?

[suokko]

How about always rebiding 2♦ with balanced minimum?

That would leave responder all bids to show his hand type and strength making auction a lot simpler.

[whereagles]

mike777, on 2015-January-02, 20:33, said:

1) what does 2s show? is 2s gf or much less?
2) How do you game force with: AQ9...KJ73...7....AQ632

1) A normal reverse. Ok, you can lower requirements a little bit to, say a good 14 H, as 2♣ already shows 10+H. And yes, it's game force.
2) See above. With that particular hand bid 3♥ (4th suit) and raise opener's 3NT to 4NT (quantitative, ofc).

[SteveMoe]

1) Meaning for 2♠ depends on how you respond with 4=x=y=5+ patterns. If 2♣ denies 4 spades, then 2♠ shows extras. If not then opener is simply bidding their pattern. Opener's 2♥ cue bid may be their strongest call. I prefer the pattern bid here and for me 2♣ does not deny 4 spades.

2) No real interest in Moysian given ♥ values so 3N shows this hand.

[Phil]

I cannot help but think that those that choose 2♦ are concerned it wouldn't be forcing (?) if we instead held AKxx Axx AKQxx x?

[mgoetze]

If your opening contains a weak NT, you always need to cater to that hand type until it can be excluded. This is, of course, why some people only include the weak NT in one of their openings, not two.

[gordontd]

Phil, on 2015-January-03, 13:46, said:

I cannot help but think that those that choose 2♦ are concerned it wouldn't be forcing (?) if we instead held AKxx Axx AKQxx x?

You wouldn't choose it with that hand. Or have I misunderstood you?

[FrancesHinden]

Phil, on 2015-January-03, 13:46, said:

I cannot help but think that those that choose 2♦ are concerned it wouldn't be forcing (?) if we instead held AKxx Axx AKQxx x?

I'm completely lost by this thread.

As far as I am concerned, 2S is natural and shows reversing values. I've agreed to rebid 2D with nothing better to say here but obviously there are alternative agreements. So if I had a 4351 20-count I would bid 2S. If I had a 5161 strong hand, I would bid 2S. If I have a weak NT, in principle I have to show it either by bidding 2D (by agreement) or 2NT if nothing better presents itself.

If I am playing with a pick-up partner who might not think the same way, then I probably have to jump to 3NT over 2S with a game force and a good heart holding, because I'd worry that the auction might go off the rails. But that's not the same as asking what a normal agreement is.

[helene_t]

A weak nt can usually rebid 2♦, 2NT or 3♣. If I hold AKxx-xxx-AJxx-xx it would be convenient if 2♠ was nonforcing but I think that goes too far, and a f1r 2♠ bid that doesn't show extras isn't very helpful I think.

Maybe 2♥ should be not necesarilly strong but just ostensibly showing a weak hand with no clear direction?

[the hog]

helene_t, on 2015-January-04, 06:10, said:

A weak nt can usually rebid 2♦, 2NT or 3♣. If I hold AKxx-xxx-AJxx-xx it would be convenient if 2♠ was nonforcing but I think that goes too far, and a f1r 2♠ bid that doesn't show extras isn't very helpful I think.

Maybe 2♥ should be not necesarilly strong but just ostensibly showing a weak hand with no clear direction?

Maybe, but why have 2 weak bids? I think 2D should be the default. I totally agree with Frances. I cannot understand the US cousins and the 2S bid.