[jdgalt]

2S -- and that's the last thing I'm going to bid. If partner can't get to game by himself from that point, then we shouldn't be in it.

[Zelandakh]

jdgalt, on 2015-March-15, 14:35, said:

2S -- and that's the last thing I'm going to bid. If partner can't get to game by himself from that point, then we shouldn't be in it.

Partner might not see the funny side of this approach after their 3♦ trial bid.

[SteveMoe]

Treat the double as cooperative penalty (DSIP if you prefer). Partner has invitational plus values and not 6 ♠ cards. Doubled promises 2♥ cards (maybe 3). Opener has the option to bid 3NT with a stop, or pass for penalties.

Pass and rake in the points.

[nhaskell]

lackeman, on 2015-March-13, 02:59, said:

Hi!
Played this hand IMP yesterday.(both red)
I have in 4th seat xxx Jxxxxx - QJ9x
The bidding is p-1s-p....
How do u think here? My "expert pd" says u have 4p so pass... But that can a monkey also understand...And we have all been monkeys at the beginning!...
Playing SAYC (ie 2cl is strong)..3s is limit..
Thx in advance!

(relax and enjoy)

pass

[shaky44]

lackeman, on 2015-March-15, 04:18, said:

By the way partner had AKQJx-xx-Kxxx-KT..He bid 4s.. Mabye 3d had been better but not obvious that it is better than 4s...

It isn't obvious that 3d is a better bid than 4s? Really? What's the case for 4s? I don't even think 4s is the second best bid. For me, it's 3d or pass. Bidding 4s isn't even an option.

Unless your 2s response promised an ace, bidding 4s is just hoping for the best in a situation where there are good options. How many ace-less hands can you have where that contract makes?

[gszes]

lackeman, on 2015-March-15, 04:18, said:

Y I feel now that 2s must be the correct bid, not sure.In the end we playedTo play 2 s Is no problem but the problem rises when partner have a hand that he will continue w invite or bidding game. a hand like AKxxxx-xxxx-Axx is a good 4 s contract hand (if not trumf lead but anyway a 50%+ to make).. But when partner have for ex a bad spade tex Kxxxx then he can have many points for ex Kxxxxx-KQ-Kx-KQJ (17 points but a bad game)..
By the way partner had AKQJx-xx-Kxxx-KT..He bid 4s.. Mabye 3d had been better but not obvious that it is better than 4s...
By the way I think that when trumf i setted it isnt so much of a danger if som points are missing/extras.. Often the 6 trumf for ex are matters more..
It is i think NT hands or when no trumf are setted, then it can bee problem if not follow highpoints to some extennd value the hand.
I can mean allso that if we dont get the contract for ex if LHO is declear it can be a bad lead as te result of the 2 s supporting bid. I often think of not support in many cases when partner is leading from his A/K/Q/KJ/KQ etc it often costs a trick.
Anotherthing is that (in my experience)when bidding is like this and especially when we have suited hands/renons etc... They didnt bid so often they have less than 11 points if not they passes with trumf.. Then Pd will probably have 15/16+ points and often continue bidding... This talks for pass..
I play often bergen raises and (strong club) then 2S often is wery weak.
So in my summary It is some that talks for a pass.. And if they balance then we can bid 2 s or hearts, partner then have more correct picture of our hand, and can make better bids in the case the bidding continue..
WhAT DO U SAY?

I mentioned earlier the preemptive value of a 2s bid. This is a much stronger bidding deterrent when using a "standard" system where opener is limited only by their failure to open 2c. Keeping the opps silent (they are pesky critters) is the primary aim of most preemptive bidding. Passing 1s and waiting to back in if/when the opps balance fails on several counts.

1. P is even more likely to lead a spade under such conditions since backing in almost always at least means some spade values (not so with a direct raise).
2. Opps can/will almost always back into the bidding at the 2 level where it is much safer than the 3 level.
3. P will never ever ever believe your hand has 2+ potential tricks and many reasonable games will be missed.

P overbid their hand when it was worth a 3d invite (I am sure some are thinking 2n but will not say it). Do not concern yourself with every comment made by every partner. We have all learned differently and come to make our own style (which will change over time trust me). You are off to a good start (though I would reconsider using that monkey analogy) keep on truckin:)

[mike777]

I think pass is ok if playing SAYC.

expect most in the forum to like the raise to 2s.
Many feel that to win in bridge you need to make these preemptive raises.
On this hand I may have some defense if opp come in or I may raise to 2s later.

[lackeman]

Thx for the answers!
I have sort of change in this hand. I think pass is the best here. There are some factors for me that makes pass better. Most of them beeing said here.
In practice partner will very seldom pass on our invite since he will near allways have a hand borderline or better(invitational+).. Since it is here depending of his distrubution and hounnors in right suits he will have hard to evaluate his hand.
If lho now balance we will get better picture of how to do. and partner will sometimes do somethinng active, for ex rebid spade.. lets say lho bids 2d, partner 2 s and rho 3d. Then we have a very good hand and can bid 4 spades and be relativley suure on that it is a good contract. Further partner know better how to do for example if he in some cases later wants to x. And he will be able to have this information in case we will play defence later.(for example he is not likely give a trick away in the lead)
I do not agree so much in this case that "the preempting effect" of 2 s is so much worth... In fact i would be glad if opponents intervene with a bid, we can bid spades later in that case if we think it is right to do then. We sort of cant do anything fealing sure of beeing the right move, without opponents comming in and telling us.
The only thing (in my oppinion) negative is that we sometimes misses 4s when it is right(or mabye 4h)but I dont think this "factor" is enough for compensation. and mabye opps are going in sometimes at 3 level w heart(not finding the supposed dimond 8 card+).
In MP i think pass is acctually "way better than 2 s" partly because the mathematics make us bid less games than in IMP.
Seames that I argue mabye a little backwards here, so the "!shrink" may have a diagnos and is "ready to act" on me
I agree on that partner should bid 3d ( or mabye pass like also was mentioned) but in practice most player i think will act on "backkbone" here and mabye overbid the hand.. Atleaste both me and partner should know that "opner is often relativley strong to borderline 2 club opening" for what it now can be worth in practice bidding here in this case..
If going back to the negative ie missing game, how often do u think partner have a hand making 10 tricks or more? And if so how often of this times do the bidding ending in 1 spades (ie no balancing)...

[johnu]

lackeman, on 2015-March-27, 03:22, said:

I have sort of change in this hand. I think pass is the best here. There are some factors for me that makes pass better. Most of them beeing said here.

Hmm, I must have been reading an entirely different thread. I guess I need a new pair of glasses.

[gordontd]

SteveMoe, on 2015-March-16, 17:24, said:

Treat the double as cooperative penalty (DSIP if you prefer). Partner has invitational plus values and not 6 ♠ cards. Doubled promises 2♥ cards (maybe 3). Opener has the option to bid 3NT with a stop, or pass for penalties.

Pass and rake in the points.

To which hand do these comments relate?