[Vampyr]

Liversidge, on 2015-July-06, 10:12, said:

One post referred to a support double and from what I can gather it shows 3 card support for responder's suit after a RHO overcall. I guess this means that you can't play both types of double and have to agree which one you will play.

I should not worry about esoterica like support doubles at this stage. Perhaps someday you will find that you are having trouble with the relevant hand-types. Then you might consider taking up support doubles, and if so make sure you read up on them thoroughly so you know things like when the apply etc.

[aguahombre]

Vampyr, on 2015-July-07, 06:02, said:

I should not worry about esoterica like support doubles at this stage. Perhaps someday you will find that you are having trouble with the relevant hand-types. Then you might consider taking up support doubles, and if so make sure you read up on them thoroughly so you know things like when the apply etc.

This is so perfectly worded.

[Liversidge]

Vampyr, on 2015-July-07, 06:02, said:

I should not worry about esoterica like support doubles at this stage. Perhaps someday you will find that you are having trouble with the relevant hand-types. Then you might consider taking up support doubles, and if so make sure you read up on them thoroughly so you know things like when the apply etc.

Point taken. But this topic came up with my (more experienced) partner a few weeks ago when he doubled after we had both bid a suit, and when I was asked by opps what I took it to mean, I said I wasn't sure but assumed it was for penalties. I was gently admonished for not alerting (EBU rules). After the game partner explained that he was giving me the option of making a takeout or passing for penalties - he was stuck for a bid and he knew the opps were regular contract stealers and didn't want them to get away with it. I had not come across this sort of double - I just knew about takeout doubles including negative doubles, and penalty doubles. So when I read about competitive and support doubles on this board I thought I should find out more as it may come up again and I want to be a bit better prepared.
(Partner and I play around 3 times a month and rarely get time together to refine our understandings - mainly brief discussions at the table or afterwards, or by email, so I often use this board to brush up on stuff when things go wrong on deals and I don't quite follow what helpful players are explaining.)

[Liversidge]

Vampyr, on 2015-July-07, 06:02, said:

I should not worry about esoterica like support doubles at this stage. Perhaps someday you will find that you are having trouble with the relevant hand-types. Then you might consider taking up support doubles, and if so make sure you read up on them thoroughly so you know things like when the apply etc.

It's also hard to know sometimes when to draw the line when I post a question that seems fairly straightforward and some answers refer to bid types and conventions (Kickback, UCB etc) that I have not come across and are probably for more advanced players than a novice/beginner. Overall I get terrific responses, much more informative than I can get from any other sources, but sometimes I can get drawn beyond my comfort / experience level without realising it.

[wank]

Liversidge, on 2015-July-07, 13:00, said:

It's also hard to know sometimes when to draw the line when I post a question that seems fairly straightforward and some answers refer to bid types and conventions (Kickback, UCB etc) that I have not come across and are probably for more advanced players than a novice/beginner. Overall I get terrific responses, much more informative than I can get from any other sources, but sometimes I can get drawn beyond my comfort / experience level without realising it.

part of it is jargon. ucb you would probably understand. (1c) 1s overcall (x) 2c cuebid = good raise = ucb

but you're right about kickback, it's quite advanced and open to misunderstandings and whoever mentioned it is an idiot. it's also, as far as i'm concerned, pretty worthless.

[Zelandakh]

I do not think that Kickback is worthless but I do think it should be avoided by any N/B player (and most I players too). As an aside, as far as I can see no one mentioned Kickback in this thread so I am not sure who you are calling an idiot.

[Liversidge]

Zelandakh, on 2015-July-08, 03:23, said:

I do not think that Kickback is worthless but I do think it should be avoided by any N/B player (and most I players too). As an aside, as far as I can see no one mentioned Kickback in this thread so I am not sure who you are calling an idiot.

I was not referring to this particular thread, and I was only giving Kickback as an example of terms used by responders on this Novice / Beginner Forum. I also mentioned the Unassuming Cue Bid, and Vampyr suggested that I should probably know about it. I have only just discovered it and noone at my clubs play it, and I suspect most have never heard of it.

I play at three clubs, two social and one an EBU club where the standard is a bit higher. I have been playing bridge for two years and am probably the newest member at all three clubs. You may be surprised to know that very few players at any of the clubs know about splinters, Jacoby 2NT, Landy, Michaels, UNT, Puppet Stayman, Garbage Stayman, Unassuming Cue Bid, intermediate / weak jump overcalls, etc., though some have heard of them. Hardly anyone at the social clubs knows what a 'reverse' is, only one pair play KCB, and most have never even heard of RKCB.

I have a few books on Acol. The 'beginner' books rarely mention any of the above. I have a couple of books for improvers, including one by Michelle Brunner (Acol bidding for Improvers), and the only conventions covered are standard Blackwood, Stayman and Intermediate/Jump overcalls. She does not cover red suit transfers. Only in her more advanced book ("for budding experts") does she introduce the systems I mention above. And yet these terms come up in postings on this board. I can totally understand why they do. Often the thread subject matter widens out and experts discuss among themselves, and it's difficult to know if they have novice me in mind at the time. Occasionally someone will say "I don't think this is suitable for the NBF, which helps. I try to follow as much as I can. But someone might say '"I'd double here" and someone else will agree. It doesn't look like a type of double I recognise, so I look it up. I then ask myself "should I have known this". Before you know it I am discovering that it is a competitive double, or a supportive double, or an optional double, or a reopening double, and my brain hurts.

It's easy for you experts to recognise that some poster's suggestions are not for a novice/beginner and I should skip over them, but it's harder for me to recognise it. And who is to say what the boundary is between NBF material and IAF material?

Vampyr's suggestion was spot on, though sometimes it's hard to know when to apply it.

[helene_t]

As for UCB (and J2NT, Truscott and inverted minors), I think it is one of those conventions which actually make bidding simpler. If you don't have a forcing raise available and you have a good hand with fit for partner's suit, you will either bid some fake suit first (hopefully that is forcing?) in order to make a delayed game raise next round, or you will just jump to game. Both can be confusing. If you first bid a new suit and then raise partner, it sounds more like secondary support, giving partner a choice. And if you jump to game immediately it often looks preemptive. It is certainly not what you want to do with a serious slam invite.

So if you have a regular partner and he/she is happy to spend a bit of time on system discussions, it is something that should be quite high on your priority. Maybe not quite as high as knowing what you do after they interfere over your weak NT, or whether jump overcalls are weak or intermediate, or indeed when reverses apply.

But forcing raises should have higher priority than conventions like landy, crowhurst, control bids and splinters which are all nice but which you can easily live without.

[mgoetze]

Liversidge, on 2015-July-08, 04:29, said:

She does not cover red suit transfers. Only in her more advanced book ("for budding experts") does she introduce the systems I mention above.

And then we wonder why beginners come to BBO and self-rate as "expert".