[wanoff]

MP

---

What went wrong here, since 3NT is cast iron?
I bid what I thought was a normal 2♠ but afterwards a good player at the club suggested that with such poor spades, it is better to start with 1♠.

Second question and it happens quite often in competitive auctions. Say West bids 3♥, maybe after a raise by East, is 3♠ by North just competing, with double showing a general game try or a game try in spades ?

[TMorris]

N might bid 3 ♥ to find out more about your hand.

[wank]

Both are wrong.

2h from south - max pass with 4 spades and a side suit. This is a bit of a stretch but so was 2s.

3h from north - denying primary fit but with values for game

[PhilKing]

4♠ looks a pretty decent spot as well, and will often outscore 3NT.

[wanoff]

wank, on 2015-July-23, 06:52, said:

Both are wrong.

2h from south - max pass with 4 spades and a side suit. This is a bit of a stretch but so was 2s.

3h from north - denying primary fit but with values for game

Thx.
And on another hand how do you find the side suit fit.

What if it hadn't been a passed hand ?

[wank]

North just bids naturally. South can put dummy down when he feels appropriate (shouldn't be forcing with s a passed hand).

If south's not a passed hand it should be forcing (to suit agreement is ok) and less specific about suits (any strong hand) so you'd need a higher minimum to bid 2h.

[MrAce]

PhilKing, on 2015-July-23, 06:54, said:

4♠ looks a pretty decent spot as well, and will often outscore 3NT.

I did not make any calculation. But when I look at both hands briefly, I would take 3 NT over 4♠ on any given day. In fact I expect 3 NT to be cold on any lead, given that we miss 9 hearts and E did not support when he had the chance. So W has a real opener.

[PhilKing]

MrAce, on 2015-July-23, 08:35, said:

I did not make any calculation. But when I look at both hands briefly, I would take 3 NT over 4♠ on any given day. In fact I expect 3 NT to be cold on any lead, given that we miss 9 hearts and E did not support when he had the chance. So W has a real opener.

It's matchpoints.

Unless the diamonds come in for 4 tricks, we have only 9 tricks in 3NT.

Given that (as you mentioned) West probably has 6 hearts (no raise) that is somewhat odds against. Give West a 2632 or similar and 4♠ is the matchpoint winner. Make him 3622 and we will make an overtrick.

That being said, it's pretty normal to reach 3NT. But I rather suspect that there would have been no post mortem unless spades were 5-1.

[nige1]

wanoff, on 2015-July-23, 06:04, said:

MP. What went wrong here, since 3NT is cast iron? I bid what I thought was a normal 2♠ but afterwards a good player at the club suggested that with such poor spades, it is better to start with 1♠. Second question and it happens quite often in competitive auctions. Say West bids 3♥, maybe after a raise by East, is 3♠ by North just competing, with double showing a general game try or a game try in spades ?

---

Over North's double, I rank calls:

• 1N = BAL. 8-11. Constructive, May have 4CM. System on.
• 2♠ = NAT, 7-9. INV. Usually 5+♠.
• 2♥ = ART. An overbid that might wrong-side contracts.
• 1♠ = NAT. 0-7. An underbid.

I agree with wanoff, that if West bids 3♥ then you should agree that double shows game interest but 3♠ is just competing.

[the_clown]

I would go low and bid only 1♠ as South (2♠ shows 5 for me and cuebidding with the wasted king of hearts is clear overbid).

Now North is kinda stuck and may pass or bid 2♥. Over 2♥ - South will just jump to 3NT.

[mikeh]

the_clown, on 2015-July-23, 09:51, said:

I would go low and bid only 1♠ as South (2♠ shows 5 for me and cuebidding with the wasted king of hearts is clear overbid).

Now North is kinda stuck and may pass or bid 2♥. Over 2♥ - South will just jump to 3NT.

What is your strength range for:

1. 1♠ holding 4 cards?
2. 2♥, intending to bid spades?

If you are otherwise playing methods close to standard, then you may have a serious gap.

The normal approach is for 1♠ to be limited to a mediocre 8 count or so, and for the cuebid to be forcing one round. Typically, altho not universally, the cuebid establishes a force to the lower of game or suit agreement. Thus if partner bids 2♠ over your cuebid, you may not pass....the only non-forcing calls you can make are 3♠ or game. This very common approach means that the cuebid has to be based on about 11 hcp, altho obviously this can be shaded when advancer has useful shape. It creates a problem for 9-10 counts with 4 card spade suits if you play that 2♠ requires a 5 card suit.

Any other method, such as allowing (an unpassed hand) advancer to cue and pass, places huge pressure on doubler, who has to jump or return the cue with any extras, such that the auction may be at the level of 3♥ and the partnership hasn't even begun to find the strain in which it should be playing.

[MrAce]

PhilKing, on 2015-July-23, 08:54, said:

It's matchpoints.

Unless the diamonds come in for 4 tricks, we have only 9 tricks in 3NT.

Given that (as you mentioned) West probably has 6 hearts (no raise) that is somewhat odds against. Give West a 2632 or similar and 4♠ is the matchpoint winner. Make him 3622 and we will make an overtrick.

That being said, it's pretty normal to reach 3NT. But I rather suspect that there would have been no post mortem unless spades were 5-1.

- Then I give you 3-3 ♠ W holding 3613
- But if you insist on 4-2 how about 4-2 spades W holding 4?
- If you really want E to hold 4 spades then how about 2623 instead of 2632.
- I will not even annoy/bother you with 5-1 ♠ or 4-0 ♣ or 6-1 or 0-7 ♦
- Then I combine all of this with the non ♥ lead in 3 NT. (maybe wanoff can tell us the frequency of ♥ lead vs 3 NT).

First you will need to duck all of these, and then hope that ♦ J does not to drop. If all of this happens, I think 4♠ deserved to be matchpoint winner. Still not sure about calling it decent.

[the_clown]

mikeh, on 2015-July-23, 10:05, said:

What is your strength range for:

1. 1♠ holding 4 cards?
2. 2♥, intending to bid spades?

If you are otherwise playing methods close to standard, then you may have a serious gap.

The normal approach is for 1♠ to be limited to a mediocre 8 count or so, and for the cuebid to be forcing one round. Typically, altho not universally, the cuebid establishes a force to the lower of game or suit agreement. Thus if partner bids 2♠ over your cuebid, you may not pass....the only non-forcing calls you can make are 3♠ or game. This very common approach means that the cuebid has to be based on about 11 hcp, altho obviously this can be shaded when advancer has useful shape. It creates a problem for 9-10 counts with 4 card spade suits if you play that 2♠ requires a 5 card suit.

Any other method, such as allowing (an unpassed hand) advancer to cue and pass, places huge pressure on doubler, who has to jump or return the cue with any extras, such that the auction may be at the level of 3♥ and the partnership hasn't even begun to find the strain in which it should be playing.

I agree, I play the same methods that you described. I realized that with a good 9 or 10 count I may be stuck for a bid once in a while, but I think knowing whether partner has 4 or 5 card support makes a huge difference on a lot of hands. And if sometimes you were about to miss a game, the opponents may save by competing over 1♠

[PhilKing]

MrAce, on 2015-July-23, 10:15, said:

- Then I give you 3-3 ♠ W holding 3613
- But if you insist on 4-2 how about 4-2 spades W holding 4?
- If you really want E to hold 4 spades then how about 2623 instead of 2632.
- I will not even annoy/bother you with 5-1 ♠ or 4-0 ♣ or 6-1 or 0-7 ♦
- Then I combine all of this with the non ♥ lead in 3 NT. (maybe wanoff can tell us the frequency of ♥ lead vs 3 NT).

First you will need to duck all of these, and then hope that ♦ J does not to drop. If all of this happens, I think 4♠ deserved to be matchpoint winner. Still not sure about calling it decent.

The variants in which West has three clubs give East three trumps and a singleton (not to mention the 6 card diamond suit in one case).

I don't think either case is likely, and West holding 4 spades is way against the odds (and if he does I can still make it, albeit only by an unjustified DD line).

I'm more worried about how top play it on a club lead (which may be a singleton), but I will rise with the jack and hopefully East will give count. I will overtake and play accordingly. There could still be a nasty ending in which the club blockage rears it's ugly head, but it is too early to tell.

[SteveMoe]

Agree with 2♠ = 9-11 4+ cards (old fashioned I know).
Then 3♥ Western appeals - and partner will comply with 3N or 3♠ failing a ♥ stop - that raises the likelihood partner has a ♠ honor. I woudl then raise to 4♠.
Prefer 3N over 4♠ as we are missing AJT9xxx. Too many ways to lose 3 trump tricks.

[steve2005]

PhilKing, on 2015-July-23, 08:54, said:

It's matchpoints..

That being said, it's pretty normal to reach 3NT. But I rather suspect that there would have been no post mortem unless spades were 5-1.

I think NS in trouble in 4♠ on even a 4-2 break barring a very favourable lie.Even 3-3 need A♠ placed well.

[iandayre]

South had a tricky problem. North did not, 3H over the 2S call is 100% clear cut.

[jodepp]

I agree wholeheartedly with others who say: 1) 2♠ is fine (four spades and 9-11), and 2) 4♠ by North is premature. North should cuebid 3♥ to set a force and imply only three spades. South can then try 3NT which North can pass.

[antalya007]

Moysian fit (4-3 fit) is used generally at part score raises but sometimes it is ok at level 4 too. Especially at this board trump fit probably at overcaller opp so KQ of our trump will get tricks. I think not an anormal auction

[Zelandakh]

steve2005, on 2015-July-24, 05:36, said:

I think NS in trouble in 4♠ on even a 4-2 break barring a very favourable lie.Even 3-3 need A♠ placed well.

How is 3NT doing if East has ♠A? Quite aside from which, you are giving West 7 hearts and 9hcp for their 3rd seat opening (surely East would have raised with 3 trumps and ♠A) - just how likely do you think this is?

As an aside, I am not fond of the 1♠ suggestion at all and prefer pretty much every other candidate bid available. There are plenty of different auctions possible here depending on style and agreements but I think reaching 3NT is normal. 4♠ is not so bad seeing both hands though and on another day you might have been congratulating yourself on finding the Moysian rather than asking how to avoid it.