[Jinksy]

I had this hand with an 'advanced' BBO, who became extremely abusive when she didn't like my rebid. I would post it in the intermediate/advanced section, but since we both agreed it was a beginner-level question, I'll put it here:

1♥ P 1♠ P
1N P 4N

What's the 4N bid? Playing with an advanced partner, with no prior system discussion, what would you do now with a reasonably good 2533 13-count?

(the hand was cancelled, so I don't have the details. Something along the lines of Qx AKQxx xxx QTx)

[ArtK78]

Jinksy, on 2015-July-28, 12:28, said:

I had this hand with an 'advanced' BBO, who became extremely abusive when she didn't like my rebid. I would post it in the intermediate/advanced section, but since we both agreed it was a beginner-level question, I'll put it here:

1♥ P 1♠ P
1N P 4N

What's the 4N bid? Playing with an advanced partner, with no prior system discussion, what would you do now with a reasonably good 2533 13-count?

(the hand was cancelled, so I don't have the details. Something along the lines of Qx AKQxx xxx QTx)

Without prior discussion, this is a quantitative invitation to 6NT. Given that the 1NT rebid usually promises 12-15 HCP, the 4NT bid should show 18-19 and a relatively balanced hand without either 5 spades or 3 hearts.

[Cyberyeti]

ArtK78, on 2015-July-28, 12:34, said:

Without prior discussion, this is a quantitative invitation to 6NT. Given that the 1NT rebid usually promises 12-15 HCP, the 4NT bid should show 18-19 and a relatively balanced hand without either 5 spades or 3 hearts.

Indeed and even more so if you had 2♠ strong available. I can see a not very good player wondering how you simply Blackwood in spades here if you have to start with 1♠.

[Mbodell]

I'm pretty sure if you polled players here or on bridge winners you'd get quantitative as the overwhelming favorite. I'm pretty sure that if you did a search across all human tables where this action actually occurred somewhat more of them would be for some form of blackwood and/or keycard than for quantitative.

As for why it should be quantitative? Because with a spade hand that wants to force to the 5 level and explore slam there are other auctions to do this. Either starting with a strong jump shift, or playing some sort of xyz/nmf like system and having a slamming game forcing 3♠ call available, or if no agreements at all doing a fake J/S and then trying to get spades agreed.

If instead what you have is some 4=2=(34) 18-19 count or the like, what can you do but bid like this?

If I opened with a reasonably good 2533 hand I bid 6NT.

[BillPatch]

ArtK78, on 2015-July-28, 12:34, said:

Without prior discussion, this is a quantitative invitation to 6NT. Given that the 1NT rebid usually promises 12-15 HCP, the 4NT bid should show 18-19 and a relatively balanced hand without either 5 spades or 3 hearts.

With SAYC advocating the 15-17 HCP, and the modern tendency of the expert player not to downgrade any 15 hand(see 2012 Wolff interview in Bridge World), the 1NT rebid is usually 12-14 HCP, and in that 3 point range a fairly normal 13 would be a maximum. So perhaps the 4NT bid should show 19-20 HCP.

[mycroft]

You know how I keep saying that nobody plays SAYC, even the people who play SAYC? Well, I just got trapped:

Quote

However, after a 1NT rebid by opener, bids of a new suit at the next higher level are non-forcing.
1H — 1S
1NT — 2C, 2D = non-forcing. Responder must jump shift to 3D or 3Dto force game.

Second-round forcing bids following a 1NT rebid by opener: a reverse or jump shift into a new suit is a game force.
1C — 1 H
1NT - 2S or 3D = game force.

So, yes, while 4NT is quantitative:

Quote

4C IS GERBER OVER ANY 1NT OR 2NT BY PARTNER, INCLUDING A REBID OF 1NT OR 2NT.
4NT is slam invitational only because 4C is available as Gerber (to ask about aces).

and you do have other bids to set spades before KeyCarding, 2m isn't one of them.

I would have got that wrong. Of course, so would at least 95% of players playing "SAYC".

[ArtK78]

BillPatch, on 2015-July-29, 11:44, said:

With SAYC advocating the 15-17 HCP, and the modern tendency of the expert player not to downgrade any 15 hand(see 2012 Wolff interview in Bridge World), the 1NT rebid is usually 12-14 HCP, and in that 3 point range a fairly normal 13 would be a maximum. So perhaps the 4NT bid should show 19-20 HCP.

Except that the opening bid was 1♥, and many players will not open 1NT holding a 5 card major.

So I would stick with the 1NT rebid as showing 12-15 HCP. Quite frankly, 16 is possible.

[Zelandakh]

The correct answer in the N/B forum is simply quantitative and nothing further. However, this is a fairly special auction in that the usual quantitative agreements do not really make any sense here. Opener is not going to have a second suit and Responder is not going to be looking for some 5-3 minor fit on the side...so it actually makes good sense to play this as conditional Blackwood. That is, Opener would pass with a minimum but show aces (not key cards) with a maximum. This has to be better than having Opener's only possible responses being pass or 6NT if nothing else!

[mgoetze]

BillPatch, on 2015-July-29, 11:44, said:

the 1NT rebid is usually 12-14 HCP, and in that 3 point range a fairly normal 13 would be a maximum. So perhaps the 4NT bid should show 19-20 HCP.

That assumes that you want 33 HCP to be in 6NT, which is not correct.

[Zelandakh]

mgoetze, on 2015-August-10, 17:39, said:

That assumes that you want 33 HCP to be in 6NT, which is not correct.

Can you explain the statistics please as the two sets for NT appear to show 6NT as being the optimal contract for 33 combined hcp in all cases.

[mgoetze]

Zelandakh, on 2015-August-11, 10:42, said:

Can you explain the statistics please as the two sets for NT appear to show 6NT as being the optimal contract for 33 combined hcp in all cases.

I probably shouldn't have brought it up in the beginner forum anyway, so no. Try mentally inserting an "as many as" in my previous sentence and see if that helps.

[BillPatch]

Zelandakh, on 2015-August-11, 10:42, said:

Can you explain the statistics please as the two sets for NT appear to show 6NT as being the optimal contract for 33 combined hcp in all cases.

At the N/B level the traditional requirement for a NT slam is properly 33 HCP and should continue to be taught at that level, especially on this board.
At higher levels of bridge it has become apparent that there are 34 HCP hands with little or no play for six NT, and some hands with 30 HCP where it is possible to bid odds on slams. The poor 33-34 HCP slams are normally due to pancake(4333) or mirror distribution. It normally takes a complex bidding system which may aid the defense to avoid bidding the losing proposition 33-34 HCP NT slams; even at matchpoints, it is usually good practice in this region to bid an eight card fit suit slam with a possible ruffing trick. See Jeff Rubens. Secrets of Winning Bridge., for a fuller description. As for 30-33 HCP slams Richard Pavlicek on his excellent web site has a series of excellent double dummy simulations; the one on IMP odds with various sets of distributions an HCPs shows that DD NT slam is usually IMP positive with 31+HCP with a balanced distribution versus another balanced or a semi-balanced distribution, and 30+ with balanced versus un balanced hands. NT Grand slams are biddable with 35+ HCP. Checking back for A's is normally a good idea before bidding such slams, and stoppers are nice at NT. I normally locate the Richard Pavlicek web site by Google or Bing.

[BillPatch]

mgoetze, on 2015-August-10, 17:39, said:

That assumes that you want 33 HCP to be in 6NT, which is not correct.

33 HCP is the traditional level, as I explained above it is proper for the level of this board.

[BillPatch]

ArtK78, on 2015-July-29, 11:55, said:

Except that the opening bid was 1♥, and many players will not open 1NT holding a 5 card major.

So I would stick with the 1NT rebid as showing 12-15 HCP. Quite frankly, 16 is possible.

I agree that, particularly at MPs, it hurts to lose 5-3 major fits due to opening 1NT holding the 5 card major, so one might want our partners to know which 5 card majors can be rebid somewhat conveniently, how opener adjusts his rebids on the next round, and how responder adjusts his rebids on the next round for the increased NT ranges possible. A lot of material to cover but I suppose one could fit it in to 1/4 to 1/2 a session in the beginner's course.
The alternative which I prefer as Marty Bergen teaches, is to teach beginners to open all balanced hands of the correct strength 1NT, even with a 5 card major. He, and his students, have proven it is possible to attain international class bridge levels doing this.
After the student has some experience, and developed more bridge judgment, he can make the decision for himself whether he wants to adjust his style. He will be able to learn more quickly due to his higher skill level.

[Zelandakh]

I am still not getting it. Dealer opened 1♥ on this board playing 5 card majors so we are obviously not dealing with mirrored 4333s or anything or that nature. So what considerations are going into the idea that 33 would not be correct here? You can make slam easily with less that half of the points but what relevance does that have to the idea that we would not want to be in slam on this hand with a combined 33hcp? Perhaps my level of understanding is somewhere below that of the N/B forum these days...

[PhilKing]

mgoetze, on 2015-August-10, 17:39, said:

That assumes that you want 33 HCP to be in 6NT, which is not correct.

With statistics, one should always handle with care. In a different section, one can see the results from real play versus double dummy. When 6NT was reached it made 327 times out of 445, but on a double dummy basis, 6NT made 358 times. That represents a colossal advantage (over 9%) for DD over the actual results. And that possibly understates it, since it will include a lot of 12 on top 34 counts as well as touch and go 32s where playing DD will be at a premium.

[steve2005]

Zelandakh, on 2015-August-11, 16:10, said:

I am still not getting it. Dealer opened 1♥ on this board playing 5 card majors so we are obviously not dealing with mirrored 4333s or anything or that nature. So what considerations are going into the idea that 33 would not be correct here? You can make slam easily with less that half of the points but what relevance does that have to the idea that we would not want to be in slam on this hand with a combined 33hcp? Perhaps my level of understanding is somewhere below that of the N/B forum these days...

Yes J♥ will be a big card if in p hand, 5 heart tricks

[aguahombre]

Pretty much agree with everyone's posts here. For this level (N/B) 4nt should be quant, but rarely is taken as or intended as quant. For SAYC, it is spelled out as quant and pretty much duly ignored by N/B.

DNE is likely (does not exist) for an experienced pair which can use a simple checkback over the 1nt rebid where opener's continuation covers min/max as well as number of spades.

[mgoetze]

aguahombre, on 2015-August-14, 07:53, said:

Pretty much agree with everyone's posts here. For this level (N/B) 4nt should be quant, but rarely is taken as or intended as quant. For SAYC, it is spelled out as quant and pretty much duly ignored by N/B.

DNE is likely (does not exist) for an experienced pair which can use a simple checkback over the 1nt rebid where opener's continuation covers min/max as well as number of spades.

It should also be quantitative for I, A and E. The form of checkback where you jump with a maximum is stupid.