BBO Discussion Forums: Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 1107 Pages +
  • « First
  • 519
  • 520
  • 521
  • 522
  • 523
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#10401 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,284
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-June-26, 18:27

View Postjohnu, on 2018-June-26, 17:43, said:

Dennison tariffs could put up to 2 million US jobs at risk.

https://www.msn.com/...cSJM?li=BBnbfcN

A recession started by an intentional and incoherent trade war is neither normal nor cyclical.


Agreed, but we aren't there yet; however, the yield curve is flattening, the flattest it has been since just before the Great Recession, and that flattening has been occurring without trade war talk. And although an inverted yield curve has an impressive record as a prognosticator of recessions, the timing of the start of a recession it predicts can be quite varied, anywhere from 6 months to 2 years down the road.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
0

#10402 User is offline   y66 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,496
  • Joined: 2006-February-24

Posted 2018-June-27, 03:46

Posted Image

Also, it looks like Trump's policies are not helping Harley Davidson workers as much as hoped. The Aura!
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
1

#10403 User is offline   hrothgar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,488
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Natick, MA
  • Interests:Travel
    Cooking
    Brewing
    Hiking

Posted 2018-June-27, 05:25

Got around to listening to the following this AM.
Quite good

https://www.lawfareb...lt-intelligence
Alderaan delenda est
0

#10404 User is offline   PassedOut 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,676
  • Joined: 2006-February-21
  • Location:Upper Michigan
  • Interests:Music, films, computer programming, politics, bridge

Posted 2018-June-27, 07:20

“Even the president of the United States says you’re a rapist,” the woman said.

Quote

“Why do you hate us?” he asked.

The woman took a step back. “Because you’re Mexican,” she said.

“Because we’re Mexicans?” he asked.

“Yeah.”

Guzman spread his arms. “We’re honest people right here!”

“Ha. Ha,” the woman said. “Yeah, rapists.”

“Rapists?”

“Animals,” she said.

The words triggered instantly in Guzman’s memory. “She’s quoting the president right now!” he said he thought to himself.

And in fact, Trump had used the same words in some of his most infamous speeches — declaring that Mexico sends rapists, that “animals” sneak across the U.S. border.

“How many people have I raped?” Guzman asked the woman, tapping his T-shirt.

“Drug dealers,” she continued, in another echo of Trump.

“How many drugs have I dealt?” he asked. But he never got a logical answer.

“Even the president of the United States says you’re a rapist,” the woman said.

Guzman’s mother lowered the camera for a moment to turn off the leaf blower. When she raised it again, her son was asking: “Do you believe everything you see on the news? Can’t you tell we’re working hard right here?”

Political analysts opine that Trump has tapped into the anger of many voters, and it seems that this woman buttresses the point. She certainly has internalized the demented rantings of Trump and his minions.
The growth of wisdom may be gauged exactly by the diminution of ill temper. — Friedrich Nietzsche
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
0

#10405 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,284
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-June-27, 08:26

View PostPassedOut, on 2018-June-27, 07:20, said:

“Even the president of the United States says you’re a rapist,” the woman said.


Political analysts opine that Trump has tapped into the anger of many voters, and it seems that this woman buttresses the point. She certainly has internalized the demented rantings of Trump and his minions.


When the U.S. has its Spanish Krystallnacht, I wonder if there will be another 5-4 ruling that it was a valid expression of free speech?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
1

#10406 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 21,591
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2018-June-27, 08:31

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-June-26, 12:50, said:

Anyone else notice that the three recent SC cases have been decided 5-4? McConnell wins; democracy loses.

It's more surprising when they don't.

#10407 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,284
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-June-27, 08:39

View Postbarmar, on 2018-June-27, 08:31, said:

It's more surprising when they don't.

Oh, look, another 5-4 vote today. Thank goodness the SCOTUS is non-political!
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
0

#10408 User is offline   hrothgar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,488
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Natick, MA
  • Interests:Travel
    Cooking
    Brewing
    Hiking

Posted 2018-June-27, 10:41

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-June-27, 08:39, said:

Oh, look, another 5-4 vote today. Thank goodness the SCOTUS is non-political!


If you look at the total number of cases that are decided by the Supreme Court, the overwhelming majority are NOT decided by 5-4 decisions.

The press tends to focus on the 5-4 because they make for better copy.
Alderaan delenda est
0

#10409 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,284
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-June-27, 10:51

View Posthrothgar, on 2018-June-27, 10:41, said:

If you look at the total number of cases that are decided by the Supreme Court, the overwhelming majority are NOT decided by 5-4 decisions.

The press tends to focus on the 5-4 because they make for better copy.


Exactly my point. These 5-4 decisions seems to be less about applying the law impartially and more about political persuasion. If so, we are in for a decades long struggle to retain a viable republic.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
0

#10410 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,031
  • Joined: 2008-September-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2018-June-27, 14:29

View Postjohnu, on 2018-June-26, 17:43, said:

Dennison tariffs could put up to 2 million US jobs at risk.

https://www.msn.com/...cSJM?li=BBnbfcN

A recession started by an intentional and incoherent trade war is neither normal nor cyclical.


Largest U.S. Nail Manufacturer Could Soon Be Out Of Business Because Of Trump Tariffs

To paraphrase the late Senator Everett Dirksen, a hundred jobs here, a hundred jobs there, pretty soon it adds up to a real recession.
0

#10411 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,284
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-June-27, 14:42

Recession is the least of our concerns at this point. Retaining some semblance of a democracy and a functioning republic with three equal branches of government takes precedence.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
0

#10412 User is offline   Chas_P 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,513
  • Joined: 2008-September-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Gainesville, GA USA

Posted 2018-June-27, 15:06

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-June-27, 10:51, said:

These 5-4 decisions seems to be less about applying the law impartially and more about political persuasion.


The four dissenting votes in the travel ban ruling are a perfect example.
0

#10413 User is offline   rmnka447 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,366
  • Joined: 2012-March-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Bridge, Golf, Soccer

Posted 2018-June-27, 15:38

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-June-27, 10:51, said:

Exactly my point. These 5-4 decisions seems to be less about applying the law impartially and more about political persuasion. If so, we are in for a decades long struggle to retain a viable republic.

It seems to me that progressive candidates consistently campaign saying they will appoint judges that will rule favorably on progressive programs. So complaining about the courts playing politics is completely disingenuous by any progressive. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

While you may think that way of selecting the judiciary is fine, conservatives see it as completely undermining the viability of our democracy.
1

#10414 User is offline   StevenG 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 629
  • Joined: 2009-July-10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bedford, England

Posted 2018-June-27, 15:55

View Postrmnka447, on 2018-June-27, 15:38, said:

It seems to me that progressive candidates consistently campaign saying they will appoint judges that will rule favorably on progressive programs. So complaining about the courts playing politics is completely disingenuous by any progressive. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

While you may think that way of selecting the judiciary is fine, conservatives see it as completely undermining the viability of our democracy.

As a non-American, I find it amazing that politicians of any persuasion should appoint judges. That way can only lead to corruption.
1

#10415 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,284
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-June-27, 17:08

View Postrmnka447, on 2018-June-27, 15:38, said:

It seems to me that progressive candidates consistently campaign saying they will appoint judges that will rule favorably on progressive programs. So complaining about the courts playing politics is completely disingenuous by any progressive. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

While you may think that way of selecting the judiciary is fine, conservatives see it as completely undermining the viability of our democracy.


I think you are missing something; it matters nothing to me if the appointee is Republican or Democrat as long as he or she can leave set those politics aside when ruling.

The current administration, with its incessant concern over loyalty, is not interested in fair and impartial law. That is the concern.

Also, it used to be that advise and consent of the Senate took 60 votes, so now with the 51 vote rules it is easier to get a compromised judicial candidate approved.

See, this is where I think you miss - I understand and agree to a point with the ruling today about unions, and I am as strongly union as you can get. But putting my bias aside, I can understand how someone who is not in the union and disagrees with the union politics would feel strongly that he should not be compelled to pay dues when the union lobbies against his political interests. I get that.

What I can't figure out is how to disentangle that person from the benefits of collective bargaining done on his behalf, whether he approves or not. Nor can I figure out how to legally prevent unions from exercising their right to lobby.

When that happens, Spock comes to mind - the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one. It seems 5 present SCOTUS justices are not fans of Star Trek.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
0

#10416 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,284
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-June-27, 20:55

https://www.nytimes....t-civility.html

Quote

We Have a Crisis of Democracy, Not Manners
Michelle Goldberg
By Michelle Goldberg
Opinion Columnist

June 25, 2018


Kirstjen Nielsen, the homeland security secretary, stood nearby as Sarah Huckabee Sanders, the White House press secretary, spoke to the press on June 18.CreditTom Brenner/The New York Times
Last year, the white nationalist Richard Spencer was kicked out of his Virginia gym after another member confronted him and called him a Nazi. This incident did not generate a national round of hand-wringing about the death of tolerance, perhaps because most people tacitly agree that it’s O.K. to shun professional racists.

It’s a little more complicated when the professional racist is the president of the United States. The norms of our political life require a degree of bipartisan forbearance. But treating members of Donald Trump’s administration as ordinary public officials rather than pariahs does more to normalize bigotry than exercising alongside a white separatist.

Over the last week, several Trump administration officials and supporters have been publicly shamed. On Friday night, the Trump press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders was asked to leave a farm-to-table restaurant in Lexington, Va. That morning, protesters blasted a recording of sobbing migrant kids outside the home of Kirstjen Nielsen, Trump’s secretary of homeland security.

A few days before that, Nielsen left an upscale Mexican restaurant near the White House after protesters confronted her, chanting, “If kids don’t eat in peace, you don’t eat in peace!” The Trump adviser Stephen Miller was also yelled at in a Mexican restaurant — someone called him a fascist, though he may not regard that as an insult. The same night that Sanders was denied service, Pam Bondi, Florida’s Trump-supporting attorney general, was heckled outside a movie theater where she’d gone to see a documentary about Mister Rogers. Adding to the furor, Representative Maxine Waters, a California Democrat, urged people to keep jeering at members of Trump’s cabinet when they’re out and about, saying, “You tell them they’re not welcome anymore, anywhere.”

Naturally, all this has led to lots of pained disapproval from self-appointed guardians of civility. A Washington Post editorial urged the protesters to think about the precedent they are setting. “How hard is it to imagine, for example, people who strongly believe that abortion is murder deciding that judges or other officials who protect abortion rights should not be able to live peaceably with their families?” it asked.

Of course, this is not hard to imagine at all, since abortion opponents have assassinated abortion providers in their homes and churches, firebombed their clinics and protested at their children’s schools. The Roman Catholic Church has shamed politicians who support abortion rights by denying them communion. The failure to acknowledge this history is a sign of the reflexive false balance that makes it hard for the mainstream media to grapple with the asymmetric extremism of the Republican Party.

I’m somewhat agnostic on the question of whether publicly rebuking Trump collaborators is tactically smart. It stokes their own sense of victimization, which they feed on. It may alienate some persuadable voters, though this is just a guess. (As we saw in the indignant media reaction to Michelle Wolf’s White House Correspondents’ Association Dinner routine, some pundits project their own concern with Beltway decorum onto swing voters, who generally pay less attention to the news than partisans.)

On the other hand, there’s a moral and psychic cost to participating in the fiction that people who work for Trump are in any sense public servants. I don’t blame staff members at the Virginia restaurant, the Red Hen, for not wanting to help Sanders unwind after a hard week of lying to the public about mass child abuse. Particularly when Sanders’s own administration is fighting to let private businesses discriminate against gay people, who, unlike mendacious press secretaries, are a protected class under many civil rights laws.

Whether or not you think public shaming should be happening, it’s important to understand why it’s happening. It’s less a result of a breakdown in civility than a breakdown of democracy. Though it’s tiresome to repeat it, Donald Trump eked out his minority victory with help from a hostile foreign power. He has ruled exclusively for his vengeful supporters, who love the way he terrifies, outrages and humiliates their fellow citizens. Trump installed the right-wing Neil Gorsuch in the Supreme Court seat that Republicans stole from Barack Obama. Gorsuch, in turn, has been the fifth vote in decisions on voter roll purges and, on Monday, racial gerrymandering that will further entrench minority rule.

All over the country, Republican members of Congress have consistently refused to so much as meet with many of the scared, furious citizens they ostensibly represent. A great many of these citizens are working tirelessly to take at least one house of Congress in the midterms — which will require substantially more than 50 percent of total votes, given structural Republican advantages — so that the country’s anti-Trump majority will have some voice in the federal government.

But unless and until that happens, millions and millions of Americans watch helplessly as the president cages children, dehumanizes immigrants, spurns other democracies, guts health care protections, uses his office to enrich himself and turns public life into a deranged phantasmagoria with his incontinent flood of lies. The civility police might point out that many conservatives hated Obama just as much, but that only demonstrates the limits of content-neutral analysis. The right’s revulsion against a black president targeted by birther conspiracy theories is not the same as the left’s revulsion against a racist president who spread birther conspiracy theories.

Faced with the unceasing cruelty and degradation of the Trump presidency, liberals have not taken to marching around in public with assault weapons and threatening civil war. I know of no left-wing publication that has followed the example of the right-wing Federalist and run quasi-pornographic fantasies about murdering political enemies. (“Close your eyes and imagine holding someone’s scalp in your hands,” began a recent Federalist article.) Unlike Trump, no Democratic politician I’m aware of has urged his or her followers to beat up opposing demonstrators.

Instead, some progressive celebrities have said some bad words, and some people have treated administration officials with the sort of public opprobrium due members of any other white nationalist organization. Liberals are using their cultural power against the right because it’s the only power they have left, and people have a desperate need to say, and to hear others say, that what is happening in this country is intolerable.

Sometimes, their strategies may be poorly conceived. But there’s an abusive sort of victim-blaming in demanding that progressives single-handedly uphold civility, lest the right become even more uncivil in response. As long as our rulers wage war on cosmopolitan culture, they shouldn’t feel entitled to its fruits. If they don’t want to hear from the angry citizens they’re supposed to serve, let them eat at Trump Grill.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
0

#10417 User is offline   y66 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,496
  • Joined: 2006-February-24

Posted 2018-June-27, 21:59

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-June-27, 20:55, said:


re: "The Trump adviser Stephen Miller was also yelled at in a Mexican restaurant — someone called him a fascist, though he may not regard that as an insult", I suspect this applies to calling a troll a troll also.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
0

#10418 User is offline   y66 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,496
  • Joined: 2006-February-24

Posted 2018-June-27, 22:04

From Migration to Europe Is Down Sharply. So Is It Still a ‘Crisis’? by Patrick Kingsley at NYT:

Quote

LAMPEDUSA, Italy — On the beaches of Greece, thousands of migrants landed every day. In the ports of Italy, thousands landed every week. Across the borders of Germany, Austria and Hungary, hundreds of thousands passed every month.

But that was in 2015.

Three years after the peak of Europe’s migration crisis, Greek beaches are comparatively calm. Since last August, the ports of Sicily have been fairly empty. And here on the remote island of Lampedusa — the southernmost point of Italy and once the front line of the crisis — the migrant detention center has been silent for long stretches. Visitors to the camp on Monday could hear only the sound of bird song.

“It’s the quietest it’s been since 2011,” said the island’s mayor, Salvatore Martello. “The number of arrivals has dramatically reduced.”

It is the paradox of Europe’s migration crisis: The actual number of arriving migrants is back to its pre-2015 level, even as the politics of migration continue to shake the Continent.

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
0

#10419 User is offline   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,223
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2018-June-28, 07:11

View Posty66, on 2018-June-27, 22:04, said:



My first thought was "Does this mean that the number of refugees is drastically down?" So I read the full article. As expected the situation is complex.

Quote

In Italy, arrival numbers plummeted after Mr. Salvini's predecessor controversially persuaded several militias to halt the smuggling industry in northern Libya, and to keep thousands of would-be migrants in dangerous conditions in makeshift Libyan detention centers.

"The measures implemented by the previous government, which Salvini was so critical of, have actually been effective," said Andrew Geddes, director of the Migration Policy Center at the European University Institute in Florence, Italy.

At the same time, several European governments have made deportation agreements with Sudan, whose leader, Omar Hassan al-Bashir, has been charged with war crimes charges. A deal with Niger has helped a crackdown on smuggling in the Western Sahara. And most controversially, the German and Dutch governments brokered a European Union deal in 2016 with the authoritarian government of Turkey that led to an immediate and drastic drop in migration to Greece.



After reading it all, I am still not sure whether the number of refugees has sharply decreased. I earlier cited something saying that the number of refugees is now a little short of 70 million. Is that false? Or are they now going elsewhere? And if so, where?

On PBS the other night they were explaining, correctly or not, that the EU has to be careful criticizing the Turkish government lest Erdogan cancel the agreement about taking in the refugees.


Certainly a sharp drop in immigrant arrivals in Italy and Greece is news. I am not so sure it means that there is no crisis, either there or here. If truly there are more refugees now than at any time since WW II, that seems like a pretty substantial problem whether or not we say "crisis".


If anyone wants to say "Hey, Yank, deal with your own problems not ours" I can see the point. I am just trying to make sense of what is being said. Arrivals in Greece and Italy are sharply down. I got that. The rest of it seems hard to get a good hold on.
Ken
0

#10420 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 21,591
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2018-June-28, 09:57

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-June-27, 17:08, said:

I think you are missing something; it matters nothing to me if the appointee is Republican or Democrat as long as he or she can leave set those politics aside when ruling.

Easy to say, hard to put into practice.

Almost by definition, cases that make it to the Supreme Court are not cut and dried. The Constitution and Laws are not written perfectly, there's often room for interpretation, or conflicts between different requirements. For instance, many cases are about freedom of speech versus freedom of religion, or freedom of religion versus equal protection. Or they're just about what's really meant by the terms in a law.

No precise guidance is provided in the Constitution, so the Justices have to make judgement calls, and it's hard to see how they can do this without their personal opinions coming into play.

  • 1107 Pages +
  • « First
  • 519
  • 520
  • 521
  • 522
  • 523
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

286 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 286 guests, 0 anonymous users