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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#17441 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2021-January-06, 16:23

I'd prefer if they just did their job.
1. Certify the electoral vote.
2. Impeachment. Can be done in days if everyone agrees.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#17442 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-January-06, 16:31

 kenberg, on 2021-January-06, 16:10, said:

We need some top Rs and Ds to get together. McC and Pelosi certainly but we need others. They need to collectively say something like:


"Donald Trump has made it very clear that he does not accept the results of the election and he does not intend to willing accept the transfer of the presidency to Joe Biden. We, the undersigned, do accept that Joe Biden has won the presidency, we accept the election is legitimate, and we are determined to see that the presidency is transferred to Joe Biden on January 20. Ongoing events have caused great concern. We very much hope that Donald Trump will acknowledge that Joe Biden will rightfully and peacefully become president on January 20. We will assure that the transfer of the presidency takes place, that will be done regardless. We hope that Donald trump, starting immediately, will acknowledge that this transfer will take place, but we are prepared to do what is necessary to assure that the transfer does take place. "

No doubt someone could write it better.

My attempt to come up with something better:

Quote

Donald Trump: If you don't vacate the White House at 12:00:00 January 20, 2021, you will be arrested for trespassing, insurrection and sedition, and sent to Guantanamo on a one way ticket

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#17443 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2021-January-06, 16:42

Ben Sasse, Republican Senator from Nebraska said:

Today, the United States Capitol — the world’s greatest symbol of self-government — was ransacked while the leader of the free world cowered behind his keyboard — tweeting against his Vice President for fulfilling the duties of his oath to the Constitution.


Edit: Sasse said this, not Jake Tapper.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#17444 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2021-January-06, 16:49

OK, my last cynical comment for the day (promise)

I am waiting for Trump to tweet something along the lines that "since the Senate + House did not complete the certification on the day mandated as per the US Constitution, they have failed to approve phony Joe Biden. This means I will remain in office until the next Presidential election in 2024"

:lol: :rolleyes:
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#17445 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-January-06, 17:21

 kenberg, on 2021-January-06, 16:10, said:

My hope, perhaps naive.

We need some top Rs and Ds to get together. McC and Pelosi certainly but we need others. They need to collectively say something like:


"Donald Trump has made it very clear that he does not accept the results of the election and he does not intend to willing accept the transfer of the presidency to Joe Biden. We, the undersigned, do accept that Joe Biden has won the presidency, we accept the election is legitimate, and we are determined to see that the presidency is transferred to Joe Biden on January 20. Ongoing events have caused great concern. We very much hope that Donald Trump will acknowledge that Joe Biden will rightfully and peacefully become president on January 20. We will assure that the transfer of the presidency takes place, that will be done regardless. We hope that Donald trump, starting immediately, will acknowledge that this transfer will take place, but we are prepared to do what is necessary to assure that the transfer does take place. "

No doubt someone could write it better.

But we have reached a crisis. There really is very little time to debate this, maybe 24 hours, maybe 48. But it looks very much like this will go very badly. We must do what we can to make it go better, but we must be prepared to deal with reality if Donald Trump continues on the path he has taken. That road leads to very dark places, but we have to deal with it as it happens.

Who i the Republican Party will support tis? A good question, but those who deny the reality we face are not fit to be in any position of leadership.


This is serious. Serious issues must be dealt with. And no dawdling.


I am hoping people like McConnell understand that this is no longer simply politics. The president at the moment is still Donald Trump, and as such is commander-in-chief of the military. There must have been a reason to put in sycophants in the DOD - perhaps so there could be no national guard responses? It no longer matters. Take him out of office now - regardless of method. Et tu Brute? Once out, he needs to be prosecuted.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#17446 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-January-06, 18:23

I don't disagree with the other suggestions. That includes Richard's direct action. The main thing is to agree we are now in a completely unacceptable place. We have the president denying the validity of the election, denying he will agree to step down and really, however he might try to deny it, or maybe not deny it, he is the motivating force of today's riot. This has to be adderssed, and addressed without delay and without ambiguity. It is totally unacceptable and it will be dealt with, that is the only position anyone can take who has any sense whatsoever of responsibility. Exactly ow to do it? Wiser heads than mine can debate this, but not debate it long. Reality has take a turn for the worse, predictable perhaps, but at any rate iit has.

I doubt that Pelosi or McConnell or anyone else will enjoy this. It is necessary.
Ken
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#17447 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-January-06, 20:26

 shyams, on 2021-January-06, 16:49, said:

OK, my last cynical comment for the day (promise)

I am waiting for Trump to tweet something along the lines that "since the Senate + House did not complete the certification on the day mandated as per the US Constitution, they have failed to approve phony Joe Biden. This means I will remain in office until the next Presidential election in 2024"

:lol: :rolleyes:

At least for now, Twitter and Facebook have suspended the Manchurian President's account due to his part in the violence at the Capitol building.
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#17448 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-January-06, 20:31

 kenberg, on 2021-January-06, 18:23, said:

I don't disagree with the other suggestions. That includes Richard's direct action. The main thing is to agree we are now in a completely unacceptable place. We have the president denying the validity of the election, denying he will agree to step down and really, however he might try to deny it, or maybe not deny it, he is the motivating force of today's riot. This has to be adderssed, and addressed without delay and without ambiguity. It is totally unacceptable and it will be dealt with, that is the only position anyone can take who has any sense whatsoever of responsibility. Exactly ow to do it? Wiser heads than mine can debate this, but not debate it long. Reality has take a turn for the worse, predictable perhaps, but at any rate iit has.

I doubt that Pelosi or McConnell or anyone else will enjoy this. It is necessary.

I saw a news report that cabinet members were talking about invoking the 25th Amendment. Another news report says that Pence was the one who called out the DC National Guard to restore order at the Capitol building. The president is the commander in chief, not the VP, so we'll have to wait to find out what happened since I don't think the Insurrectionist in Chief would have done anything to stop the domestic terrorists.
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#17449 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-January-06, 23:37

What in hell was the deal about the police opening the fences to let the insurgents into the capitol building?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#17450 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 01:35

 Winstonm, on 2021-January-06, 23:37, said:

What in hell was the deal about the police opening the fences to let the insurgents into the capitol building?

Trump stooges come from all walks of life.
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#17451 User is online   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 01:35

 Winstonm, on 2021-January-06, 23:37, said:

What in hell was the deal about the police opening the fences to let the insurgents into the capitol building?


Be reasonable, they were cleaners. The police made a small mistake. You can't let one small slip-up ruin a whole system!
Non legit hoc
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#17452 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 02:12

Is this no longer US Law? I have not even heard this mentioned yet in the coverage but it seems pretty clear that this passes the 'imminent lawless action' test.
(-: Zel :-)
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#17453 User is online   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 02:52

OK, we can all go home now - it's over.
Non legit hoc
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#17454 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 03:16

There's no need to invoke the 25th Amendment for just two weeks. Pence and the Cabinet can just agree amongst themselves (with the concurrence of Congressional leaders) to ignore Trump and run the show themselves, just like they appear to have done in calling up a few National Guardsman yesterday. It'll help if they can convince Twitter to just keep Trump turned off.

Sure it's not quite legally kosher, but we aren't German. (Also, there's precedent in the form of the last year and a half of Woodrow Wilson's presidency after he had a severe stroke.)

(If they could get Mrs. Trump to help, it could be really fun to go further and gaslight him by pretending no one can see or hear him.)
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#17455 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 05:03

I wemt to bed after the Senate accepted teh Arizona electors and got up to see that the Senate has now counted the electoral votes from all states. Ok, this is movement in the right direction.


I sai earlier I thought we had 24 or maybe 48 hours to address the situation, t show that the president's actins will be dealt with. Counting the electoral votes is a better way of saying this than the announcement I was suggesting. Now I think we have another short window. If Donald Trump wants to leave office in the normal way, he has a very short period to make this clear. We need an announcement, sometime today, that he now accepts the result of the election, he will be leaving office on January 20, and he urges his supporters to accept this [peaceful transfer of power. He has, until now, made it clear that he does not accept this transfer of power and his urging of his followers has not been to be peaceful. Lacking a clear statement that he now accepts this transfer, we must deal with the fact that he does not. Exactly how to deal with it I am not sure, but it must be dealt with on the basis that he has refused to accept this reality.

We have had four years to understand just who and what Trump is. Much of this should have been addressed long ago. But he is still able to do a lot of harm in the next two week. If that is his choice, and I suspect that it will be his choice, them we must deal with it. And that means now.
Ken
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#17456 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 05:22

This is the closest you are likely to get, Ken.
(-: Zel :-)
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#17457 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 07:34

Yes, and while I might sound picky it's not enough.

"Even though I totally disagree with the outcome of the election, and the facts bear me out, nevertheless there will be an orderly transition on January 20th. I have always said we would continue our fight to ensure that only legal votes were counted. While this represents the end of the greatest first term in presidential history, it's only the beginning of our fight to Make America Great Again!"


He does not say what it will be an orderly transition to, he says it is the end of his first term without acknowledging that, at least in 2021, there will be no second term. He says he will continue to fight.


No, this does not do it. It sounds like something a lawyer would write, requiring a close second reading to see what, if anything, it actually says.


He started this. If Donald Trump now wishes to cooperate in a peaceful transfer of the presidency to Joe Biden, he needs to be unequivocal. There is very good reason to believe that he plans no such thing, and this statement does not help at all.
Ken
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#17458 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 08:33

 pilowsky, on 2021-January-07, 01:35, said:

Be reasonable, they were cleaners. The police made a small mistake. You can't let one small slip-up ruin a whole system!


Yes, how true, Dimitri. Posted Image

Myself, I still think the Caligula model of removal from office fits the situation best. Posted Image
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#17459 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 08:45

Btw, this from Politico makes the slogan Defund the some Police seem a lot more reasonable:

Quote

Just after 1 p.m., rioters began clashing with police on the Capitol steps and pushing toward the entrances to the building. They battered the doors and shattered windows. Within an hour, they had breached the secure complex and throngs of rioters were freely roaming around the building. Some began pushing toward the Senate chamber, where senators were still inside debating the election results. Outside, they continued to wreak havoc. One police officer was caught on video taking a selfie with a rioter who had entered the building.
my emphasis

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#17460 User is offline   PeterAlan 

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Posted 2021-January-07, 09:55

 kenberg, on 2021-January-07, 07:34, said:

If Donald Trump now wishes to cooperate in a peaceful transfer of the presidency to Joe Biden, he needs to be unequivocal. There is very good reason to believe that he plans no such thing, and this statement does not help at all.

Quite apart from anything else, he's only referring to "an orderly transition on January 20th" (my emphasis), which hardly gets the job done properly (as we've already been seeing with, for example, Defense and Budget Management).

What are the chances of Biden turning out to be President 47?
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