[Winstonm]

It struck me today that the sad fact is that even with the defeat at the ballot box the question in the title of this thread remains germane.

[pilowsky]

 Winstonm, on 2021-June-22, 12:40, said:

It struck me today that the sad fact is that even with the defeat at the ballot box the question in the title of this thread remains germane.

This depends on your definition of democracy.
I've lived and worked all over the world.
I was more uncomfortable in the USA than I was in China.
Australia, Sweden, Denmark, New Zealand - all have problems, but these are actual functioning democracies where people look after each other to a much greater extent than in the USA.


In the USA, you have money, or you're dirt.
Lose your job, and you have nothing.
This doesn't happen in actual democracies where every member is valued.


Bernie Saunders would be regarded as a member of the right-wing of the Australian Labour Party.
Not the Chardonnay-swilling socialists and certainly not the 'loony left'.
In the USA, he's not even a member of the Democrats - this is bizarre.


No wonder, so many Americans refuse to accept that a short while ago, they ran concentration and extermination camps (reserves and plantations).
The execrable treatment of straight non-white anglo Saxon protestants whose parents weren't born in the USA continues to this day.

[Winstonm]

 pilowsky, on 2021-June-22, 16:15, said:

This depends on your definition of democracy.
I've lived and worked all over the world.
I was more uncomfortable in the USA than I was in China.
Australia, Sweden, Denmark, New Zealand - all have problems, but these are actual functioning democracies where people look after each other to a much greater extent than in the USA.


In the USA, you have money, or you're dirt.
Lose your job, and you have nothing.
This doesn't happen in actual democracies where every member is valued.


Bernie Saunders would be regarded as a member of the right-wing of the Australian Labour Party.
Not the Chardonnay-swilling socialists and certainly not the 'loony left'.
In the USA, he's not even a member of the Democrats - this is bizarre.


No wonder, so many Americans refuse to accept that a short while ago, they ran concentration and extermination camps (reserves and plantations).
The execrable treatment of straight non-white anglo Saxon protestants whose parents weren't born in the USA continues to this day.

I was thinking more of the Republican states’ legislatures setting themselves up to overrule election outcomes.

[johnu]

 pilowsky, on 2021-June-22, 16:15, said:

Lose your job, and you have nothing.

In America, if you get seriously sick or injured and don't have health insurance, you will have less than nothing, just like god intended. America is a very religious country.

[pilowsky]

I've been psephologically inclined since I was 13 years old - maybe younger.
The word psephology comes from "pebble".
The basic problem with so-called democracy in the USA is that it isn't. Not all people get to cast a pebble.

My politician friends tell me that 30% of voters will always vote Conservative in any election, and 30% will always vote Progressive - whatever name you give the parties.
In the USA, at the last election, 33% of the eligible electorate didn't cast a vote.
If it isn't representative, it isn't democratic.
There are structural barriers to voting in the USA, and the process is regulated by individual states resulting in all kinds of problems.

So what does a real democracy look like?
1. Compulsory voting - we get a fine if we don't vote in every election.
2. One house of parliament that carries the franchise for the population - not the unrepresentative swill (quote from Paul Keating) that you find in a system with a senate.
3. Exhaustive preferential voting (it's called something else in the USA - but you don't have it - not run-off elections or first past the post (UK)
4. A federal electoral commission conducts elections for a federal parliament.
5. The commission is independent and adjusts boundaries on a population (not political) basis every five or so years.

The USA fails every one of these basic tests. Although we still have a senate full of useless party hacks and special interest groups, Australia passes most of them.
The structural impediments to voting also mean that there is barely even universal suffrage.
Far from 'no taxation without representation, ' vast tracts of taxpayers with permanent residency cannot vote.

To say nothing of the so-called illegal immigrants that pay tax and keep the US economy ticking over.
Does the Philipino maths teacher (https://bit.ly/EdJulesbergUSA) who helps fill the terrible teacher shortage in the USA get to vote?
If not, why not? She pays taxes.

[Winstonm]

 johnu, on 2021-June-22, 20:44, said:

In America, if you get seriously sick or injured and don't have health insurance, you will have less than nothing, just like god intended. America is a very religious country.

Amen to that!

[barmar]

While it's annoying, I can understand how the filibuster evolved to its modern form.

It's supposed to encourage debate and compromises, but would that really work in practice? We've seen examples where the Senate is forced to debate things: SCOTUS nominations, impeachment trials. The debates are mostly pro forma, almost totally partisan bloviating. There's no actual discussion taking place, no one is listening to the other side and giving it serious consideration.

If they changed the rules so we had to have "Mr Smith Goes to Washington" style filibusters, they'd do it, do nothing would be accomplished. So the current rule is simply acknowledging reality: in our highly polarized and partisan Congress, it's impossible to change the other party's mind on the Senate floor. Making them sit through a "debate" will annoy them, but not solve the problem. And it won't change the minds of constituents; if anything, they'll applaud them for taking a stand.

We saw something pass with bipartisan support last week, the creation of the Juneteenth holiday. It's purely symbolic, although meaningful. About the only really substantive thing they ever pass is last minute budget bills to keep the government from shutting down.

[helene_t]

Once we had to make a decision about something brought to a UK co-housing board. I was the only person who voted against the decision.

Chairperson: "What is your issue?"
Me: "oh, no big deal, I just disagree"
Chair: "but we all have to agree. Can you live with the decision?"
Me: "Yes, of course I can"
Chair: "OK, then you are supposed to approve!"

That was a bit of a culture shock. In Dutch co-housing boards we vote anonymously and with simple majority, the chair breaks a tie, if your side loses you just move on with no hard feelings. In the UK, we keep discussing until there's no disagreement among the shrinking number of delegates that can still be bothered to debate.

I suppose the UK model has merits in a culture where there's no partisanship and everyone shares a common aim of protecting the interests of vulnerable minorities against the majorities' tyranny.

But obviously the Dutch model works better in a modern democracy.

[pilowsky]

 helene_t, on 2021-June-22, 22:53, said:

Once we had to make a decision about something brought to a UK co-housing board. I was the only person who voted against the decision.

Chairperson: "What is your issue?"
Me: "oh, no big deal, I just disagree"
Chair: "but we all have to agree. Can you live with the decision?"
Me: "Yes, of course I can"
Chair: "OK, then you are supposed to approve!"

That was a bit of a culture shock. In Dutch co-housing boards we vote anonymously and with simple majority, the chair breaks a tie, if your side loses you just move on with no hard feelings. In the UK, we keep discussing until there's no disagreement among the shrinking number of delegates that can still be bothered to debate.

I suppose the UK model has merits in a culture where there's no partisanship and everyone shares a common aim of protecting the interests of vulnerable minorities against the majorities' tyranny.

But obviously the Dutch model works better in a modern democracy.

Elections for my Club in Australia are about to start.
A message came out asking for candidates.
I offered to be the person that everyone disagrees with.
My offer was declined.

[pilowsky]

Now the SDNY is using squid to try and catch whales:

[y66]

Stephen Colbert said:

Calamari isn’t the only member of this breaded crime ring in trouble, because prosecutors are also investigating Calamari’s son, Matthew Calamari Jr. Like his father, Calamari Jr. hasn’t been officially charged yet, but prosecutors recently advised both men to hire lawyers. You know the world is upside down when the Calamari are ordering lawyers for the whole table.

[akwoo]

 helene_t, on 2021-June-22, 22:53, said:

Once we had to make a decision about something brought to a UK co-housing board. I was the only person who voted against the decision.

Chairperson: "What is your issue?"
Me: "oh, no big deal, I just disagree"
Chair: "but we all have to agree. Can you live with the decision?"
Me: "Yes, of course I can"
Chair: "OK, then you are supposed to approve!"

That was a bit of a culture shock. In Dutch co-housing boards we vote anonymously and with simple majority, the chair breaks a tie, if your side loses you just move on with no hard feelings. In the UK, we keep discussing until there's no disagreement among the shrinking number of delegates that can still be bothered to debate.

I suppose the UK model has merits in a culture where there's no partisanship and everyone shares a common aim of protecting the interests of vulnerable minorities against the majorities' tyranny.

But obviously the Dutch model works better in a modern democracy.

I think democracy only works in a culture where there's no partisanship and everyone shares a common aim of protecting the interests of vulnerable minorities against the majorities' tyranny.

Once you lose that, I'm not sure we should bother having democracy at all, because it just devolves into tyranny of ever shrinking majorities.

[johnu]

Yes, there was voter fraud in 2020, and dead people were voting!!!

GOP Official’s Curious Explanation on Why He Voted For Trump — On Behalf of His Dead Father

Quote

Edward Snodgrass, an Ohio Republican, who serves as a Porter Township trustee, recently admitted to voting for his deceased father in the 2020 General Election. The ballot was mailed to his father, H. Edward Snodgrass, on October 6th, a day after his passing. The younger Snodgrass then forged his father’s signature and mailed the ballot, which the local board of elections received on Oct. 15.

Quote

Snodgrass has provided contrasting explanations of his actions, claiming on one hand that, “I was simply trying to execute a dying man’s wishes.”

I don't see the problem??? A white Republican honoring his father's wishes? WTP???

Subtract 1 vote in the 2020 election for the twice impeached, one term Individual-1, Manchurian President, Grifter in Chief.

Quote

He is expected to serve a three-day prison sentence and a fine of $500, yet had he not taken the plea, he could have faced Six or more months in prison with a $5,000 fine.

Contrast this to the 5 year prison term for a black Texas woman who wasn't eligible to vote.


Texas woman sentenced to five years for trying to vote gets new appeal

[thepossum]

 helene_t, on 2021-June-22, 22:53, said:

Once we had to make a decision about something brought to a UK co-housing board. I was the only person who voted against the decision.

Chairperson: "What is your issue?"
Me: "oh, no big deal, I just disagree"
Chair: "but we all have to agree. Can you live with the decision?"
Me: "Yes, of course I can"
Chair: "OK, then you are supposed to approve!"

That was a bit of a culture shock. In Dutch co-housing boards we vote anonymously and with simple majority, the chair breaks a tie, if your side loses you just move on with no hard feelings. In the UK, we keep discussing until there's no disagreement among the shrinking number of delegates that can still be bothered to debate.

I suppose the UK model has merits in a culture where there's no partisanship and everyone shares a common aim of protecting the interests of vulnerable minorities against the majorities' tyranny.

But obviously the Dutch model works better in a modern democracy.

Once I had to chair a body corporate meeting. Somebody brought an issue for their place. We had an extended discussion that maybe we could all plan something as a group, and we agreed to all abstain. When it came to the vote though everyone abstained except for the person who brought the issue. It was passed by one vote

Thats democracy. Not quite the consensus we had hoped for

I think many associations have a goal of consensus but obviously you cant force a consensus.

[thepossum]

 akwoo, on 2021-June-23, 13:46, said:

I think democracy only works in a culture where there's no partisanship and everyone shares a common aim of protecting the interests of vulnerable minorities against the majorities' tyranny.

Once you lose that, I'm not sure we should bother having democracy at all, because it just devolves into tyranny of ever shrinking majorities.

Which country do you live in. I would like to avoid it if possible

But obviously if it works and there is a person or group who know what's best for everyone who needs democracy. EDIT If they leave it at just thinking they know what's best, talking about what's best, even lecturing about what's best, that's ok, but the next step .....

Speaking of tyranny though I was particularly taken by the concept of tyranny of the majority when I first heard about it

[johnu]

What Is the Dark Triad, and Why Are People With These Personality Traits So Dangerous? Here's What Experts Say

Quote

The term the dark triad was coined by two researchers in 2002. It describes a witches' brew of three different but interrelated negative personality types. You've probably heard of them:

Narcissism: defined as feeling superior and entitled, but underneath the grandiosity is typically a sense of inadequacy

Machiavellianism: being highly manipulative, willing to deceive others to get what they want and having a cynical view of the world

Psychopathy: lacking empathy and being emotionally cold, while also impulsive and prone to taking big risks

"Central to these types is a person's disregard for others and an obsession with self," Paul Hokemeyer, PhD, a psychotherapist and author of Fragile Power: Why Having Everything Is Never Enough, tells Health. "They lack compassion, empathy, and a moral compass."

People with dark triad traits rate high in their willingness to exploit anyone to get ahead, and they experience little remorse when they cause harm to others. They can also be duplicitous and aggressive.

The only thing this article lacked was a real life example. It didn't take long to come up with the #1 example in the entire world. The twice impeached, one term Individual-1, Manchurian President, Grifter in Chief Trump.

[y66]

Rudy Giuliani’s Law License Suspended in New York by Deanna Paul at WSJ

Quote

A New York court suspended Rudy Giuliani’s state law license Thursday after concluding that he made “demonstrably false and misleading statements” in his effort to reverse the results of the 2020 election in favor of former President Donald Trump.

Mr. Giuliani, the former mayor of New York City, represented Mr. Trump as his personal attorney during the latter years of his presidency. After the 2020 election, Mr. Giuliani led a legal team that laid out sprawling and unsupported allegations of a conspiracy between Democratic officials and foreign governments to steal the presidential election for Joe Biden.

“These false statements were made to improperly bolster [Giuliani’s] narrative that due to widespread voter fraud, victory in the 2020 United States presidential election was stolen from his client,” the New York appellate division wrote in an order based on the findings of a continuing investigation by its attorney-grievance committee.

The 33-page order said that Mr. Giuliani’s conduct threatened the public interest, warranting its decision to suspend his license while the committee completes an investigation into numerous complaints against him for professional misconduct.

You hate to see it.

[Winstonm]

 y66, on 2021-June-24, 10:55, said:

Rudy Giuliani's Law License Suspended in New York by Deanna Paul at WSJ


You hate to see it.

Yes, but notice he has not been disbarred; disbarring is a lawyer thing, lawyers protecting lawyers: what happened here was a judge's decision. Whereas the police investigate themselves behind a blue wall, lawyers also investigate themselves behind a gray flannel wall.

In all such cases there should be limited self investigation and the more serious investigation should be from independent organizations.

[Winstonm]

Here's another Amen, brother!

Quote

Pastors, congregations, confessions—all elements of religion today. And a new Justice Department court filing. The DOJ announced Thursday it has charged a Florida pastor and his minister son in connection with the Jan. 6 riot at the U.S. Capitol. According to the criminal complaint, James Cusick, the father, and Casey Cusick, the son, were each charged with illegal entry in a federal building, disorderly conduct, and violent behavior at the Capitol. The pair's involvement was disclosed to the FBI by David Lesperance, a congregant of their church who was also at the Capitol and later interviewed by the feds. Authorities also found body-cam and CCTV footage depicting the Cusicks inside the Capitol at the time of the riot.

The father and son are the pastor and vice president, respectively, of Global Outreach Church in Melbourne, Florida. There is no word on whether divine intervention prompted the two to storm the Capitol.

[y66]

U.S. police officers quit and retired at unusually high rates last year.