[straube]

Thanks Kungsgeten. Concerning Mulberry, I found this post


David Yates
In a relay auction, if 4♣ is available, I play:

4♣ puppets to 4♦ to start a sign-off or make a natural SI in NT
—> 4♦ then 4M/5m to play 4NT SI to 6NT

Responder can break the puppet with about a king or ace extra for his previous bidding by bidding 4H. Ask will then either pass, corrects, pick a slam or asks responder to pick a slam (5N). If responder has even more than that, he puppets - waiting to find out what trump is (4♦->?). Then after the ‘sign-off’ responder will then take control with a ‘step’ bid as RKC .

4♦ is SI in hearts (if possible, I play if responder has 3+) else it is in his longest minor
4♥ is SI in spades (if possible) else his 2nd longest minor
4♠ is RKC in 3rd longest suit
4!NT is RKC in shortest suit

If suits are equal length, priority goes to lowest. So if responder is 2263, 4♦ is invitational RKC in ♦, 4♥ is invitational RKC in clubs 4S is RKC in hearts and 4NT is RKC in spades.

Invitational RKC (IRK in our notes) has immediate step of ‘no interest’ with relay demanding KC count over an attempt to sign-off. The 3+ for M requirement is a function of the bidding style. Ask (strong club bidder) would normally show a 6CM and not relay over a positive unless very strong or a fit for responder’s suit. With normal range hands and a show, a natural auction would have set the trumps earlier and subsequent bidding would be turbo assisted cue bidding and not RKC.

I do not know enough about the alternative method to contrast benefits/disadvantages. I put this together maybe 25 years ago. Played it some - when I play ‘seriously’ - and never had a problem. Some of my friends & partners play it and not a problem. From a theoretical standpoint, since ASK is usually going to be declarer, the 4♣ -> 4♦ puppet for the sign-off does give the opposition a potential lead director. From a practical matter, I cannot recall this

[nullve]

My somewhat Mulberry-like structure when shape resolution is almost complete and the range shown is 2 (Bergen) points wide:

http://www.bridgebas...516#entry870516

(post #8)

[shevek]

 straube, on 2016-January-11, 07:42, said:

Thanks a lot. That makes a lot of sense. I suppose with a good enough hand, responder could bid 4N, learn the trump suit and bid a grand. 11 QPs. Possibly 10?

Seems like there could be a potential for a conflict. Say I want clubs to be trump and the slave hand indicates bad spades (bids 4S) and I realize that we have two quick losers in the suit. I continue to 5C and partner having good clubs raises to 6. Is that just a negligible occurrence or do you have a way of putting on the brakes? Like opener bids 4N as a puppet....

In practice, 4D is a trump ask, so not used to find a good holding in suit x in order to play slam in y.
With that, you are stuck with SPs & DCB.
I think we play 4D - 4M - 4NT as natural invite.

[straube]

Looking at this. It's a windfall for the resurrects/super-accepts at the expense of the QP ask.

If shape resolved at 3H (or deduct steps for 3D or 3C)

3S-terminator puppet, usually no trump will have been bid by now but occasionally the slave hand will have to declare NT
3N-QP ask
4C-RKC H
4D-RKC S
4H-RKC C
4S-RKC D

If shape resolved at 3S/3N

4C-QP ask
4D-terminator puppet, partner to super-accept with base +3
4M-invites RKC with base +2
4N-ace ask, partner to bid 5C with a predetermined base, else one step for each additional
5L-invites the suit, asks a raise with more RKC cards than base

Any comments? Good or bad?

[straube]

Tested it a bit and so far I like it. I'll contrast what we used to do and what we're trying out now. Say 3415 is shown at 3D. Our former scheme...

3H-QP ask
.....3S-6
.....3N-7
.....4C-8
.....etc
3S-RKC C
3N-to play
4C-RKC H
4D-terminator
4H-RKC S

Present scheme...

3H-terminator
.....3S-6 or 7
.....3N-8
.....etc
3S-QP ask
.....3N-6
.....4C-7
.....4D-8
.....etc
3N-RKC H
4C-RKC S
4D-RKC C
4H-RKC D

Maybe the most obvious downside is that for the QP ask we have lost a step.

What I've found though is that we used to ask QPs (when space allowed) as a courtesy ask. Maybe we have a minimum hand, but partner has a good hand? Save space then, especially if our alternative action is the 4D terminator puppet. In practice, when pattern is resolved at low levels, the terminator puppet is wasting a bid because it isn't used.

Now we very/most frequently use the step 1 terminator with those same minimums but in these instances partner's super-accept saves us a step. In the example above, 8 is shown at 4C the old way but 3N the new way.

With the old way, if we asked with 3H and partner had base (6), he would respond 3S and now 3N was to play and 4C asked cue bidding. So we break even on our ask when partner has 6 because our ask here is 3S and partner bids 3N to show 6.

When now we use our QP ask, it obviously shows more interest in slam, some combination of good fit or extra values. On average then, the slave hand will tend to have a minimum hand (fewer QPs likely available). If he bids 3N or 4m here we will still have a pretty effective cue bidding auction.

Having 3N as a RKC ask and combining it with the suit order H/S/C/D means that we usually have space for meaningful RKC auctions before the trump suit has been passed.

We haven't tried signing off in 4m yet, but I think this will be a very rare option after the terminator. It's a small side benefit.

[foobar]

 straube, on 2016-January-17, 23:39, said:

We haven't tried signing off in 4m yet, but I think this will be a very rare option after the terminator. It's a small side benefit.

Actually, a better way to see it might be to see the first step as a compressed QP ask. As a corollary, there shouldn't be an option to stop on a dime, especially the compressed ask, i.e, a change that goes along with it is that the second step should a terminator in the more classic sense of the term.

3H-Compressed QP ask
3S-Terminator
3N-RKC H
4C-RKC S
4D-RKC C
4H-RKC D

Note that another possibility is that use of the terminator when a compressed ask is available can be used to indicate that the relay captain is at the bottom end of the QP range and / or the hands don't mesh well. On marginal hands, the slave hand may use it as a hint on deciding whether to super accept.

[straube]

We're trying out grouping our two lowest QP possibilities into one response. For instance, for a positive response, our two lowest would be 6 or 7.

I've always disliked how grouping the two lowest could result in such absurdity as....

3D pattern completion
3H QP ask
3S 6 or 7
4C argh, I have to waste a step to continue
4D 6
4H argh, I want to sign off in 4H

We're trying these rules now and so far they seem to work...

Pattern ends at 3S or 3N

3N-is to play, but partner has the option to super-accept with 2 over base....except for a balanced hand of known range or a semipositive
4C-QP ask not interested in play in 4H
.....4D-two lowest
.....etc
4D-QP ask with interest in play in 4H
.....4H-two lowest
.....etc
4M-to play
.....super-accept requires 3 over base (because partner has shown disinterest in 2 over base)
4N-invitational
5m-to play

Pattern ends at 3H

3S-QP ask
.....3N-two lowest
..........4C-asks, not interested in play in 4H
...............4D-base
...............etc-zooming with base +1
..........4D-asks, interested in play in 4H
...............4H-base
...............zooming with base +1
..........4M-to play
..........4N-invitational
..........5m-to play
3N-to play
.....super-accepts with base +2 when allowed
etc-RKC HSCD

Pattern ends at 3D

3H-QP ask
.....3S-third lowest
..........3N-asking
.....3N-two lowest
..........4C-asking
..........4D-asking, interested in 4H play
..........4M-to play
..........etc
.....4C-fourth lowest
.....etc
3S-terminator
.....3N-accepting puppet
..........4m-to play
..........etc-to play
.....other-super-accepting base + 2 when allowed
etc-RKC HSCD

Pattern ends at 3C

As for 3D but a step lower. The two lowest still are shown at 3N

When RKCing, we're using 0314 for positive/strong slaves and 0, 1, 1 with Q, 2 for semipositive slaves