[Liversidge]

Does LHO treat it as a jump, or assume the bidder has made a mistake, or query?

[pran]

 Liversidge, on 2016-April-03, 10:51, said:

Does LHO treat it as a jump, or assume the bidder has made a mistake, or query?

He treats it as a jump and assumes that the bidder simply forgot the STOP.

He is entitled to his 10 seconds pause for thought before calling but may call at any time from immediately until the 10 seconds have elapsed.

(Unless local regulations impose different rules)

[Cyberyeti]

Agree with Pran.

Is there any redress if the auction goes 1♦-(no stop 2♠)-2♣ and 3rd player says "there was no stop, I just saw the spade and assumed it must be 1" when pulled up ?

[pran]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-April-03, 11:14, said:

[...]
Is there any redress if the auction goes 1♦-(no stop 2♠)-2♣ and 3rd player says "there was no stop, I just saw the spade and assumed it must be 1" when pulled up ?

IMHO No

[Liversidge]

 pran, on 2016-April-03, 11:08, said:

He treats it as a jump and assumes that the bidder simply forgot the STOP.

He is entitled to his 10 seconds pause for thought before calling but may call at any time from immediately until the 10 seconds have elapsed.

(Unless local regulations impose different rules)

What if LHO opens 1♦, partner passes, and RHO bids 2♠ showing 16+ and a powerful spade suit, without showing a stop card? I might have been considering a bid with 10 points but after the jump I pass. Opps go off -50 while we could have made 2 hearts (or some better example to illustrate the point). Is there any redress?

[robert2734]

 Liversidge, on 2016-April-03, 12:27, said:

Opps go off -50 while we could have made 2 hearts (or some better example to illustrate the point). Is there any redress?

You drew an inference at your own risk about the opponent's behavior. Which you are entitled to do but the key phrase is at your own risk.

Now if they delibertly mislead you (taking forever to play their singleton) you can ask for redress.

[Liversidge]

 robert2734, on 2016-April-03, 13:14, said:

You drew an inference at your own risk about the opponent's behavior. Which you are entitled to do but the key phrase is at your own risk.

I didn't have a choice. I couldn't ask which mistake had been made.

[weejonnie]

 pran, on 2016-April-03, 11:40, said:

IMHO No

No redress at all.

However the PARTNER of the person who made a jump bid must also be careful if no stop card is produced when mandatory. i.e. he cannot assume it was a mistake.

[pran]

 weejonnie, on 2016-April-03, 14:41, said:

No redress at all.

However the PARTNER of the person who made a jump bid must also be careful if no stop card is produced when mandatory. i.e. he cannot assume it was a mistake.

Of course.

Any information from irregular use (or lack of use) of the STOP procedure is UI to the offender's partner

[ggwhiz]

In ACBL land we are allowed to use the stop card always or never with the pause for thought rules in place regardless.

I'm just curious if using the stop card is mandatory across the pond. If not are you still protected from the lightning fast pass?

[weejonnie]

 ggwhiz, on 2016-April-03, 15:19, said:

In ACBL land we are allowed to use the stop card always or never with the pause for thought rules in place regardless.

I'm just curious if using the stop card is mandatory across the pond. If not are you still protected from the lightning fast pass?

It is mandatory in the EBU. The recommended guidelines are : 2 Warnings then a procedural penalty.

And YES! If someone makes a lightning fast pass AND I am called to the table, I will advise all players of the possible UI implications. (I will also rule of course if called at the end of the hand, but prevention is better than cure.)

Many a time I have used the stop card and find the auction has finished before I withdrew it. (Although usually it is something like 1NT P Stop 3NT AP.)
-----------
3Z B Use of the STOP Card

3Z B 1 Before making a jump bid (i.e. a bid at a higher level than the minimum in that denomination) a player should place the Stop card in front of them, then place their call as usual, and eventually remove the Stop card. Their LHO should not call until the Stop card has been removed.

3Z B 2 The Stop card should be left on the table for about ten seconds, to give the next player time to reflect. It should not be removed prematurely.

3Z B 3 After a jump bid, the next player MUST pause for about ten seconds before calling. It is an offence either not to pause or to show indifference when pausing. If the Stop card has been removed prematurely or has not been used, an opponent should nevertheless pause as though the Stop card had been used correctly.

3Z B 4 If a Stop card is taken from the box no call has been made until the card for the actual bid is taken out. Thus a player who has pulled out the Stop card is entitled to change their mind and make a call which is not a jump bid. Also a Stop card played out of turn is not a call out of turn, and the player can make any legal call when it reaches their turn. Unauthorised information is available to partner in either case.

[mink]

 Liversidge, on 2016-April-03, 12:27, said:

What if LHO opens 1♦, partner passes, and RHO bids 2♠ showing 16+ and a powerful spade suit, without showing a stop card? I might have been considering a bid with 10 points but after the jump I pass. Opps go off -50 while we could have made 2 hearts (or some better example to illustrate the point). Is there any redress?

IF LHO passes the 2!S, then he obviously used UI from the missing Stop card. Or their jump is weak, and therefore should be alerted, and you are misinformed.

[Vampyr]

 Liversidge, on 2016-April-03, 12:27, said:

What if LHO opens 1♦, partner passes, and RHO bids 2♠ showing 16+ and a powerful spade suit, without showing a stop card? I might have been considering a bid with 10 points but after the jump I pass. Opps go off -50 while we could have made 2 hearts (or some better example to illustrate the point). Is there any redress?

Well, you cannot bid 2♥after the opponents have bid 2♠, so that particular ship has sailed. However, why did LHO pass a game-forcing bid? Either LHO has psyched, or RHO has, and they are using the lack of the STOP card to indicate this. This is cheating.

 weejonnie, on 2016-April-03, 17:04, said:

It is mandatory in the EBU. The recommended guidelines are : 2 Warnings then a procedural penalty.

And YES! If someone makes a lightning fast pass AND I am called to the table, I will advise all players of the possible UI implications. (I will also rule of course if called at the end of the hand, but prevention is better than cure.)

Many a time I have used the stop card and find the auction has finished before I withdrew it. (Although usually it is something like 1NT P Stop 3NT AP.)

Yes, that's annoying, but you can at least train your partners to wait until you have withdrawn the STOP card. After all, sometimes they may need to think, and lefty's insta-pass should not deprive them of the time to do so.

Quote

-----------

3Z B 3 After a jump bid, the next player MUST pause for about ten seconds before calling. It is an offence either not to pause or to show indifference when pausing. If the Stop card has been removed prematurely or has not been used, an opponent should nevertheless pause as though the Stop card had been used correctly.

This part of the regulation is a complete nonsense. After RHO has committed an offence, you have to think and keep track of how long as well? Why does the regulation specifically confer a disadvantage on the opponents of an offender?

[Vampyr]

 Liversidge, on 2016-April-03, 14:19, said:

I didn't have a choice. I couldn't ask which mistake had been made.

You can always, at your turn, ask what a bid means.

[barmar]

 Vampyr, on 2016-April-04, 07:14, said:

This part of the regulation is a complete nonsense. After RHO has committed an offence, you have to think and keep track of how long as well? Why does the regulation specifically confer a disadvantage on the opponents of an offender?

The requirement to avoid passing UI to your partner is paramount. The STOP card is an aid to doing so, but your responsbility is not negated because he hasn't followed the correct procedure.

And if you don't really have anything to think about, how hard is it to keep track of the time while not thinking about it? Keeping track of the time would only be a problem if you actually have a problem, but the theory is that your thinking time will be approximately what the required hesitation is (since the purpose of the hesitation is to make the two cases hard to distinguish).

[Vampyr]

 barmar, on 2016-April-04, 10:25, said:

The requirement to avoid passing UI to your partner is paramount. The STOP card is an aid to doing so, but your responsbility is not negated because he hasn't followed the correct procedure.

Quite. This is why I believe that the amount of time you take when no STOP card is used should not be considered UI to partner.

[blackshoe]

If the rules say you take ten seconds after a skip bid, then taking ten seconds, more or less (say plus or minus two) is "in tempo". Taking significantly more than ten seconds (say 14 seconds) is a break in tempo, as is taking significantly less than ten seconds (say six seconds). In either of those cases, your BIT may convey UI to partner.

[Vampyr]

It's somewhat amusing that some people "kind of " understand the stop card. They take no action while the card is out, and then after the card is returned to the box they (if the bid was alerted) ask what it shows.

[barmar]

 Vampyr, on 2016-April-04, 19:58, said:

It's somewhat amusing that some people "kind of " understand the stop card. They take no action while the card is out, and then after the card is returned to the box they (if the bid was alerted) ask what it shows.

I haven't encountered that, but I guess it's because in the US we put the stop card back in the box almost immediately. But I've never seen anyone ask questions after they paused for 10 seconds (of course, at least about 75% of people don't pause in the first place).