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Light Opening Bid in 3rd Seat

#21 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2016-May-09, 10:13

I don't care what partner expects*. When you preempt too high, you're often likely to turn a possible plus into a certain minus. I played crazy preempts before and me and my partner both expected them. After a while we could also expect bad scores we got from the painful 5-2 fits which we played in 2M instead of easily beating their 1NT or whatever.

*-I mean, of course I care what he/she expects, all I'm saying is if even if they know exactly what my style is, there are losing styles out there.
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#22 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-May-09, 10:33

View Postgwnn, on 2016-May-09, 10:13, said:

I played crazy preempts before and me and my partner both expected them.

Is opening a KJTxx suit at the 2 level in third "crazy"? Even when NV?
(-: Zel :-)

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#23 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2016-May-09, 11:23

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-May-09, 10:33, said:

Is opening a KJTxx suit at the 2 level in third "crazy"? Even when NV?

no sorry, I was unclear in my wording. I don't think it is crazy. I just reacted to the notion (apparently espoused to some degree by fromageGB) that opening 2M on 5332's with a lot of defense outside is OK as long as partner knows about this. I think of course partner knowing makes very loose preempting better than him/her not knowing, but it's not so simple. You still bid a contract and you will still need to try to make it some of the time.

On this hand, I don't like 2H too much but I wouldn't call it crazy. I mostly thought fromage's "This hand qualifies." was a bit too categorical. If I agreed to open 2H on 5-card suits, this still wouldn't be in my range (it would be close to it but not inside). I would open 2H on the same hand with only one of the two external cards when NV (if I had the agreement to have 5332's in my 2H).
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#24 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-May-09, 12:08

Thanks for explaining further Csaba. Although I suspect I pre-empt slightly more loosely than you, it does sound like your position is basically the same as mine. And in truth I would not be surprised if fromage is similar but just slightly further along the spectrum from me. As you say, there comes a point where pre-empting is no longer useful. Like you, I would tend to define that more in terms of ODR than strictly according to suit length, which I think (but might be wrong) is the basic point fromage wanted to make.
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#25 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2016-May-10, 07:39

Yes, I am a little further along the spectrum, but not that much. I do open weak 2Ms on both 5 card 6 card suits, and while I would open 2 with the OP hand, I would prefer to do so without the diamond Q. Playing this with 2 regular partners, I have found that it is better than break-even at MPs. I don't do it at IMPS.

While a weak 2 has length defined, of course, the length is less defined than a normal weak 2! It is more a matter of wishing to compete, and wanting to keep the integrity of a 1-level open.

Sometimes the results are painful. Exponents of the style don't mind looking foolish occasionally, as long as they can more often feel vindicated. My position in this thread is to suggest the style for Liversidge's consideration in 3rd seat, as an alternative to passing or opening 1.
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#26 User is offline   Edge_ 

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Posted 2020-August-30, 07:00

View PostLiversidge, on 2016-May-03, 13:25, said:

I am trying to get my head round this.
Klinger says that the suit opened in third seat should have good quality, one you would like partner to lead to you if you end up defending. He also says that partner should not expect you to bid again, and if you do he should assume you did not open light.

So you might open 92 KJT74 Q32 A32 and hear partner respond 1 with four spades and 10 HCP, which might be passed out.

Could someone explain the rationale thanks.



To answer the question, think of the bid more like an overcall that has to stand up to playing based on suit quality rather than points strength. When you don't have suit quality then you could take a lot of penalties. Moreover, partner will likely to lead that suit to you in defence.

Next remember the cardinal rule for Acol light openings (which does not have drury); a light opener should pass ANY bid by responder. Just like a take-out double, rebidding promises extra strength which you don't have and you end up too high. (As you can't rebid over partner, you should not have singleton in much the same way you don't take-out double with a short unbid major).

Finally responder moderate their own bidding opposite your 3rd/4th seat, and will not change suit lightly in case you pass and leave them in it (since they are a passed hand and all their own bids are passable). However if they bid 1S with 4 spades, then AK Hearts gives a two quick tricks where as KJ may yield none when you dont have enough trumps to establish long hearts.

However opening 2H has (a) more pre-emptive effect, (b) tells your partner not to expect any hidden strength, and © you have a 5 or 6 major SQOT=8 so don't bother changing to a shabby suit (and if you respond in 1H-1S-2H =14+ they would inevitably bid you higher). Although you have to make an extra trick of course, but that is the price for disrupting opponents more. But passing and waiting is a greatly under-rated bid too.
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