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Light Opening Bid in 3rd Seat

#1 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2016-May-03, 13:25

I am trying to get my head round this.
Klinger says that the suit opened in third seat should have good quality, one you would like partner to lead to you if you end up defending. He also says that partner should not expect you to bid again, and if you do he should assume you did not open light.

So you might open 92 KJT74 Q32 A32 and hear partner respond 1 with four spades and 10 HCP, which might be passed out.

Could someone explain the rationale thanks.
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#2 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2016-May-03, 14:25

View PostLiversidge, on 2016-May-03, 13:25, said:

I am trying to get my head round this.
Klinger says that the suit opened in third seat should have good quality, one you would like partner to lead to you if you end up defending. He also says that partner should not expect you to bid again, and if you do he should assume you did not open light.

So you might open 92 KJT74 Q32 A32 and hear partner respond 1 with four spades and 10 HCP, which might be passed out.

Could someone explain the rationale thanks.


If I chose to open the hand in question (and I'm not sure that I would) I would rebid 1N over a 1 advance.

Partner might play me for a full opener, however, I'll be well positioned opposite any rebid.
Worst comes to worst, we'll be in 2 rather than one, but if so partner has a real spade suit.
Alderaan delenda est
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#3 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2016-May-03, 15:29

The rationale for light opening in 3rd is that strength could be at best 4u balanced between the 2 sides. So you must try to fight for the partscore, indicate a good lead, and from times to times find a good game or sacrifice. All that is similar to the objective of an intervention. That is why opening a hand which is an "unconditionally clear" intervention is allowed, provided you have means to pull the brakes.

In all cases with the hand you gave, I would not pass 1S in a potential 4-2 fit. Hrothgar comments are completely ok. Partner should not propell you to 2NT or above and you need some kind of relays to describe opener's strength and shape if responder is max of his initial pass.
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#4 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2016-May-03, 16:06

Personally I only open light in 3rd seat when I am prepared to pass any response, knowing that we have a 7-card fit. I would assume that partner usually has a 5-card suit for a 2-level response, so a doubleton in a lower ranking suit is ok, but I won't have a doubleton above my opening suit.
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#5 User is offline   vylette 

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Posted 2016-May-03, 17:37

A good rule of thumb, which almost ALWAYS turns out to be right for me is that if you dont have a opening or weak, and no one has bid yet: HCP + your # of spades is less than 15, dont open 3rd or 4th seat. So with that hand you have 10HCP and 2 spades, so that is 12, dont open.
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#6 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-May-03, 22:54

View Postvylette, on 2016-May-03, 17:37, said:

A good rule of thumb, which almost ALWAYS turns out to be right for me is that if you dont have a opening or weak, and no one has bid yet: HCP + your # of spades is less than 15, dont open 3rd or 4th seat. So with that hand you have 10HCP and 2 spades, so that is 12, dont open.


Pearson points are commonly used for fourth seat openings; using them in third seat is unusual.
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#7 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2016-May-04, 04:32

View PostLiversidge, on 2016-May-03, 13:25, said:

I am trying to get my head round this.
Klinger says that the suit opened in third seat should have good quality, one you would like partner to lead to you if you end up defending. He also says that partner should not expect you to bid again, and if you do he should assume you did not open light.

So you might open 92 KJT74 Q32 A32 and hear partner respond 1 with four spades and 10 HCP, which might be passed out.

Could someone explain the rationale thanks.

light 3rd seat opener

#1 usually a major, light 3rd seat opener are basically pointless doing with a minor suit, others may disagree
#2 spades rule, in which case you either get a raise, or a 1NT response, to avoid 2C / 2D responses, you can introduce Drury
#3 with hearts, have a rebid, without a rebid consider a weak2

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#8 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2016-May-04, 06:23

View Posthrothgar, on 2016-May-03, 14:25, said:

If I chose to open the hand in question (and I'm not sure that I would) I would rebid 1N over a 1 advance.

Partner might play me for a full opener, however, I'll be well positioned opposite any rebid.
Worst comes to worst, we'll be in 2 rather than one, but if so partner has a real spade suit.


I should have said we play Acol and the weak No Trump, so can't rebid 1NT. What other rebid is there?
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#9 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2016-May-04, 06:50

View PostLiversidge, on 2016-May-04, 06:23, said:

I should have said we play Acol and the weak No Trump, so can't rebid 1NT. What other rebid is there?

Well, if you were so balanced as to justify considering a weak 1N rebid, but for the fact that the 1N rebid in your system is strong, then your choices are either to open 1N or to ensure that you have 3 card support for any higher ranking side suit, or 2 cards in any lower ranking, and then pass any non-forcing response.
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Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

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#10 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2016-May-04, 06:56

View PostLiversidge, on 2016-May-04, 06:23, said:

I should have said we play Acol and the weak No Trump, so can't rebid 1NT. What other rebid is there?


If you can't stomache a 2 rebid, then you should have either passed or opened 1N
Alderaan delenda est
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#11 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-May-04, 07:03

View PostLiversidge, on 2016-May-04, 06:23, said:

I should have said we play Acol and the weak No Trump, so can't rebid 1NT. What other rebid is there?

With this shape and close to a real opening bid it is usually worth considering a 1NT opening to try and preempt the spade suit. If you had J instead of a small one this would surely be your choice.

More controversial would be to open 1 and pass any response except 1. The point of that would be that it increases the chance of partner holding 5 spades. If LHO overcalls 1 and it comes back to you, you can double on shape despite the minimum values. If LHO has a big hand, the 1 opening disrupts the opps' auction despite not taking up any space providing they are not advanced.

The suggested sequence of opening 1 is even more preemptive but increases the likelihood of ending up in a 4-2 spade fit on a part-score hand. It is the sort of action that might be great but is equally likely to backfire. Strangley enough, I would be more tempted by this action with a genuine (0-3hcp) psyche. Now the chances of going down against nothing are close to nothing whilst the extra preemption is certain to be in our favour.

In any case, bidding creatively in 3rd seat is an area of the game that I think is sadly neglected. With a little imagination you can get away with a lot here and come away with a decent sized plus, particularly playing against typical club level opponents.
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#12 User is offline   WesleyC 

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Posted 2016-May-04, 09:39

When considering whether to open holding a weakish hand in 3rd seat, the most important thing is to remember that bridge is a 4-player game.

Considreing the example hand: You hold only 10 HCP after two passes, so the opponents are likely to have the balance of the high cards. On average your LHO will hold about 13 or 14 HCP, with the rest split among the two passed hands. The opponents are also more likely to control the spade suit so if it does turn out to be a partscore battle, they will have the upper hand.

Based on these two facts you expect to go negative on this board! Rather than worrying about what you will rebid and how you will reach your optimal contract, you should be thinking about how you can put the opponent's under pressure. You want to make it difficult for them to reach THEIR optimal contract and when they do win the auction, you want to give your side the best chance on defense.

Opening some number of hearts achieves both of these goals.

If our side is Non-Vulnerable then a 2H opening would be a popular choice among modern experts. This bid applies the maximum pressure, gives you some chance to steal the contract, conceals your hand strength and solves any rebid problems.

If our side is Vulnerable, preempting is a little too risky. You should open 1H, and worry about your rebid problem later. Most of the time the opponents will intervene and you will be off the hook!
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#13 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2016-May-08, 22:13

Playing weak no trump isn't conducive to light openers because you often don't have a rebid if partner responds in your doubleton at the 1 level as per this hand. With a near opener p might also have to respond at the 2 level on a 4 card suit which is vomit worthy to cater for your having a strong NT, leaving you in a similar situation at the 2 level.

Still you have to do your best. I'd rebid 2c.

Btw weak nt in 3rd is a spicy strategy. Weak nt vul in 3rd would be a straight up bad strategy.

As with all authors, don't assume ron klinger's a good player just because he can string together a sentence.
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#14 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2016-May-09, 01:24

View PostVampyr, on 2016-May-03, 22:54, said:

Pearson points are commonly used for fourth seat openings; using them in third seat is unusual.

If that is so I do not understand the rationale.
Fourth hand decides to pass out of he has no spades expecting on average a profit, which if I am in third seat means a loss for my side.
Should I then not try to avoid this loss and open if I hold spades in third seat if I have a close decision?

Rainer Herrmann
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#15 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2016-May-09, 01:49

You can use them in 3rd seat too, if you like, so long as you don't draw the line at 14 (or 15 :o ). 12 sounds more like it to me. Although I'm not sure why I should pass hands with hearts in 3rd just because I have few spades. So I use the gwnn rule in 3rd seat (similar but less effective than the Bowles/gnasher rule): I look at my hand and open it if it looks like I should open it. In practice, there probably isn't a big difference between opening in 3rd seat and overcalling on the 1 level for me.
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#16 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2016-May-09, 02:11

Suppose you hold A-Kxx-QJxx-Qxxxx
You would probably pass that hand in 4th seat. Shouldn't you pass it in 3rd seat for the same reason?
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#17 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2016-May-09, 02:53

I wouldn't pass in 3rd seat. Opps will probably find their heart/spade fit no matter what I do and I'll be behind in the fight for the partscore if I pass now. 4th seat it's close for me but ultimately I'd err on the side of not sitting at the bar making awkward small talk for an extra 8 minutes and open it (assuming my opps know about opening light in 3rd hand and my partner knows about the green card).
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#18 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2016-May-09, 04:55

Another alternative is to open a weak 2M with 5 or 6 cards. This hand qualifies. Perhaps only do this when partner has passed, otherwise keep to 6 card. The big advantage is that you have have completely normal meaningful bidding when you do open 1M, without distortions caused by grafting in Drury or somesuch.
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#19 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2016-May-09, 05:34

View PostfromageGB, on 2016-May-09, 04:55, said:

This hand qualifies.

I don't think it does. Too much outside and we are too red.

edit: thought I read somehow that we are vulnerable but it's not given.
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#20 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2016-May-09, 09:43

View Postgwnn, on 2016-May-09, 05:34, said:

Too much outside

Read this in connection with the current thread on WJO. You have the agreement that there are no rules or expectations. 2M is an advanced WJO, in the same meaning of "advanced" as used with "sacrifice".
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