[Liversidge]

The ACBL teacher's manual says:
To make a takeout double, you need support for all of the unbid suits, ideally four-card support,
especially in the unbid major suit(s). You also need at least the strength for an opening bid (13 or
more total points). However, when valuing your hand, you use dummy points.

So would you double 1♥ holding:
1. ♠AK76 ♥87 ♦AQ3 ♣832?
2. ♠AK76 ♥872 ♦AQJ ♣832?

And would vulnerability affect your decision?

We have been using a rule of thumb (can't remember where we got it from) that you need 15 points in total, counting dummy points, so you would not double with either of the above, but would with ♠K876 ♥- ♦AQ34 ♣J9532? Some good players at our 'intermediates' club say they would double 1 and 2. Is our rule of thumb too conservative.

[eagles123]

on the first one I'd complain that I only have 12 cards, but I assume you meant to give that hand the 2 of hearts as well... I think both are just automatic doubles regardless of vulnerability or form or scoring. When you don't double on this kind of hand imo you will be bullied out of auctions.

[FelicityR]

'Rules of thumb' are all well and good, but not making a takeout double at a low level will usually involve making a very risky bid at a higher level. So double you should do even if the hand isn't exactly perfect.

My flexible rule of thumb is if you double a major suit bid, you should have 4 card support for the other major, and if you double a minor suit bid, you should have at least 4-3 support for the majors. But that's just my personal rule. And rules are there to be broken.

Vulnerability and position also come into the equation, and whether partner's passed or not. The alternative to not doubling usually involves bidding a 4 card suit at the one level to get into the auction, and that has it's own agenda.

There's an Andrew Robson book on doubles I know of, and I am sure there are a few more to get you acquainted.

[gwnn]

I would double with not only the weaker hand given but also 3334/3343 and also regardless of the distribution of the honours (AAKQ in some combination), as long as hearts are xxx or Axx.

[gwnn]

4342/4324 are also OK. Your partner should know not to insist too much on 5-card minors but a 5-2 fit every now and then on the 3 level can still work out. Not great but you'll get a lot of decent contracts in the other suits in return.

[Vampyr]

FelicityR, on 2017-March-25, 08:56, said:

'Rules of thumb' are all well and good, but not making a takeout double at a low level will usually involve making a very risky bid at a higher level. So double you should do even if the hand isn't exactly perfect.

My flexible rule of thumb is if you double a major suit bid, you should have 4 card support for the other major, and if you double a minor suit bid, you should have at least 4-3 support for the majors. But that's just my personal rule. And rules are there to be broken.

Vulnerability and position also come into the equation, and whether partner's passed or not. The alternative to not doubling usually involves bidding a 4 card suit at the one level to get into the auction, and that has it's own agenda.

There's an Andrew Robson book on doubles I know of, and I am sure there are a few more to get you acquainted.

If you are going to read a book, Mike Lawrence's is the one you should get.

I don't know what "dummy points" are, but the given hands are acceptable takeout doubles. The three-card heart suit is a flaw of course, especially because partner might get excited thinking that you are short in hearts. However, as mentioned above you will get stolen from if you don't double.

[blackshoe]

Dummy points are points added to your "starting points" (your initial evaluation) for short suits. One for a doubleton, two for a singleton with three trumps, three for a singleton with four or more trumps, the number of trumps in the hand for void. Agree that the Lawrence book is the "go-to" on this.

[Vampyr]

gwnn, on 2017-March-25, 09:08, said:

4342/4324 are also OK. Your partner should know not to insist too much on 5-card minors but a 5-2 fit every now and then on the 3 level can still work out. Not great but you'll get a lot of decent contracts in the other suits in return.

Somehow my partners bid my doubleton much more than my opponents' partners do!

[msjennifer]

I know none will agree with me!We x a major suit opening when we hold at least Jxxx in the other major,not more than xx in their major and at least a Qxx support in the other two remaining suits.Over a minor suit opening We x when we hold decent 4/3 or 3/4 in the majors ,no wasted honours in their bid minor and at last Qxx in the fourth suit .The HCP range may be a good 12 to 15 HCP.We play 16/18 NT In all these.( we play explorer relay with 8+ if LHO passes and Lebensohl if LHO intervenes!) With 16 plus the treatment we give is beyond the scope of the present query.We overcall OneSpade with the given hands as the honors(HCP) are all concentrated in two suits there are 3 cards in hearts and only three rags in the fourth suit.All this may sound rubbish but we have hardly lost more than a very very few imps or MPs with this method.

[rmnka447]

gwnn, on 2017-March-25, 09:08, said:

4342/4324 are also OK. Your partner should know not to insist too much on 5-card minors but a 5-2 fit every now and then on the 3 level can still work out. Not great but you'll get a lot of decent contracts in the other suits in return.

Isn't this a throwback to a time when a takeout double just showed about opening values and didn't promise support for all suits? At least in the US, if you routinely make such off-shape doubles so as to have an understanding about them, then they must be alerted.

The idea of making shapely take out doubles promising 3+ card support in the unbid suits grew out of dissatisfaction with the bad results off-shape doubles often yielded. Shapely take out doubles also facilitated the development of balancing as a necessary tool to permit competing when an "off-shape" hand passed after the opening bid.

[rmnka447]

I would definitely double with both the hands OP asked about. Even though they are flat as a pancake, the high structure is terrific. Both hands have 3 1/3 QTs. Most 13/14 point hands usually have a about 2 QTs, so these are quite a bit more. Because of this strength, there should be no problem doubling with either hand at any vulnerability.

Where you would want to be careful about doubling with a 4-3-3-3 hand is with marginal opening values (or less) and slow winners. Compare the OP hands with something like QJxx Kxx QJx KJx. You still have 13 HCP, but opposite a bust or even a decent 6-7 in partner's hand, tricks may be difficult to come by. So doubling on this hand is much more dangerous. (Also, note that the hand has only 1 QT.) Make the hand a little a little stronger Axxx Kxx QJx Kxx and you've got a hand that would be a solid opening hand (2 QT, 12+HCP), if RHO had passed. This hand is about the minimum that I'd double with on 4-3-3-3 distribution.

[miamijd]

Yes, you should X with either hand (I'll assume the first one is missing a small heart). The big factor here is that you have no wastage in the opening bidder's suit. Honors in the bidder's suit aren't great for suit play. Even the A or K (which admittedly would be well placed) would be better off somewhere else.

Cheers,
Mike

[gwnn]

rmnka477, in fact many experts (I am not an expert) nowadays double with a doubleton in an unbid minor. They never do it with a doubleton in an unbid major (unless 17+ or something). That's what I try to do as well and I've been happy with my results.

[Liversidge]

Vampyr, on 2017-March-25, 09:11, said:

If you are going to read a book, Mike Lawrence's is the one you should get.

Just received it this morning. I have just skimmed through it but already I can see it is a great book.

[kuhchung]

Just to pile on with gwnn here, I hated when the opponents used it against me because it was against what I learned, and they always seemed to get a good result. Then I decided to try it and I've never gone back.

[nullve]

kuhchung, on 2017-April-10, 17:49, said:

Just to pile on with gwnn here, I hated when the opponents used it against me because it was against what I learned, and they always seemed to get a good result. Then I decided to try it and I've never gone back.

Same here. But this style works a lot better if the 1N response to the double does not promise, nor even suggest, a stopper in Opener's suit, because then Advancer can usually bid 1N instead of 2m on a 4-card suit. (The exception is when he is too weak for 1N.)

[JLilly]

Not too experienced here, but my understanding is that a takeout double at low levels is mostly saying "I'd like to bid, but I fall short of our distribution requirements, or have no particular suit worth bidding, and whatever bid you make will substitute for the bid I might have made." This can get corrected by doubler to show extra strength. With the strength you're showing, I'd double, even if we don't have shortness in ♥. This is automatic if opp is opening in 3rd seat, and if partner is passed. Parter may have passed for marginal HCP and no 5-cM. Especially because your suit is spades, you have a leg-up in outcompeting opps.