[dlittmann]

.

[helene_t]

Hi Dlittmann, welcome to the forum!

It judged that 4♥ plays better than 3NT. All diamond bids from then on (apparently not 7♦) were cue bids.

You might have been able to avoid this by making the normal 2NT 2♠ rebid instead of the 2NT rebid. Otherwise you just have to pass 4♥.

Edit: thanks, Ahydra

This post has been edited by helene_t: 2018-May-28, 19:47

[ahydra]

helene_t, on 2018-May-28, 19:38, said:

You might have been able to avoid this by making the normal 2NT rebid instead of the 2NT rebid. Otherwise you just have to pass 4♥.

I assume you mean 2S rather than 2NT?

To the OP:
- just FYI there is a "GIB robot discussion" where crazy GIB bids/plays (plus the occasional good one) should be posted. The BBO staff who work on GIB monitor that forum and occasionally make changes to the robots based on the feedback.
- with bots, you can hover over a bid before making it to see what it means. A lot of the time a bid does not mean to the robot what you think it would mean to a human partner.

ahydra

[smerriman]

From GIB's perspective:

My partner showed a balanced hand with 18-19 points, despite having a singleton heart and 20 HCP! After I signed off in 4♥, he then cuebid his way to a grand slam! By the time it got to the 7 level I assumed we must have had a misunderstanding and gave up

Who has programmed these humans to go off the rails like this!

(Just some lighthearted fun 2♠ is the normal rebid.)

[dlittmann]

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[kenberg]

I have often thought the bots sit around drinking electronic martinis discussing the humans. It has been noted that 2S is a more normal rebid for opener. If for some reason I instead choose 2NT then over partner's 3D I would definitely be thinking of a diamond slam. To my mind, 3S over 3D accepts diamonds. I am not sure if the bots play that way but even of they don't 3S seems better than 3NT. After the 3D, a diamond slam sure seems likely.

I have noticed that bots sometimes get extremely optimistic about key cards. Here is a favorite (you will see why):http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?sn=kenberg&s=SAQ862HKDA86CKQ98&wn=Robot&w=SJ97H98543D42CJ54&nn=Robot&n=SKT543HQT7DQT75C7&en=Robot&e=SHAJ62DKJ93CAT632&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1S(Major%20suit%20opening%20--%205+%20%21S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points)P4S(Preemptive%20raise%20--%205+%20%21S%3B%208-%20HCP%3B%204+%20total%20points)D(Takeout%20double%20--%204+%20%21H%3B%2016+%20total%20points)5D(Cue%20bid%20--%201+%20%21C%3B%205+%20%21S%3B%2021%20HCP%3B%20no%20%21CA%3B%20%21DA%3B%2022%20total%20points%3B%20forcing)P6S(5+%20%21S%3B%208-%20HCP%3B%2010+%20total%20points)PPP&p=H4H7HJHKSAS9S3H2S8S7STC2C7CAC9C4HASQH9HTCKC5D5C6CQCJD7C3S6SJSKD9HQH6D6H8S5D3S2H5S4CTD8D4DTDJDAD2C8H3DQDK

[smerriman]

dlittmann, on 2018-May-28, 20:26, said:

Also - I'm not agreeing that a 2S bid is proper here - the bot has already denied a 4 card spade suit with the 1H bid following a pass. There is no possibility of the bot using a responder reverse to show opening points - the max it can have is 10-12 (and likely 9 or less based on the bidding).

Firstly, bidding 1♥ does not deny 4 spades.

Secondly, the purpose of reversing into spades isn't (just) to find a spade fit. It's to show your strength; you are much too strong for 2NT - all you need is Qxxx of spades and Axxx of hearts and you should be in slam, not signing off in game like you're guaranteed to after 2NT. In this case, it would get you to an easy 6♦.

dlittmann, on 2018-May-28, 20:26, said:

Additionally, the bot knew there was at a minimum a 5-3 diamond fit, with at best a 5-2 heart fit. Preference for a 4H game with those lousy hearts in a 5-2 vs. a known 8 card fit is a terrible programming error.

Were you playing IMPs or MPs?

If IMPs, opposite a balanced 18-19 count with exactly 2 hearts, 4♥ is a far superior spot to either 3NT or 4♦.

If MPs, it's a bit closer, but with those heart honours (and the terrible diamonds) 4♥ is still the best spot based on simulations.

[MrAce]

You think this is bots gone wild?

Check this, happened today.

http://www.bridgebas...246#entry952246

[steve2005]

dlittmann, on 2018-May-28, 19:30, said:

First off - the 4H bid promised a 6th heart, the 5 heart bid a 6+ heart, it had already promised at least 4 diamonds. By every system I know of - especially with that hand, the 3NT and the 5D bids were shut-down bids, the 6D was a second retreat from hearts.

Your 2N promises 2♥
Often 3N is not a shutout bid. Though Gib as usual is bidding on air.
When i was a beginner (20 mp) I pulled a life master's 3N to 4S.
I was told 3N ends all auctions in no uncertain terms..
4S was a top 420 3N made 400 and I knew it was likely going to be a top. Apparently life masters know didley!

[johnu]

GIB had a 6th sense that you didn't like hearts and successfully stopped bidding hearts at the 6 level. Well done GIB. Sometimes GIB will continue bidding hearts until the 7 level so you got a little lucky.

[virgosrock]

dlittmann, on 2018-May-28, 19:30, said:

This bid happened today:

---

My hand was South - 3 Bots in a tournament
Now, All bidding is natural - I'm trying to understand what set the bot off for this bidding sequence - it literally went insane.


First off - the 4H bid promised a 6th heart, the 5 heart bid a 6+ heart, it had already promised at least 4 diamonds. By every system I know of - especially with that hand, the 3NT and the 5D bids were shut-down bids, the 6D was a second retreat from hearts.


Who has programmed these bots to go off the rails like this?

It is quite rare but I am with GUBBO (Ginsberg's Untelligent Bridgeplayer on BBO) on this one.
1d-1h-2S. now most likely it bids 2NT showing it has a poor hand. maybe someone can confirm this. or it bids 3d though that is positive.
1d-1h-2s-2nt-3c showing your shape. at this point up in the air what GUBBO does. possibly 3D.
OR
1d-1h-2s-3D positive with support and you are off to the races.

In this case, sorry, 0% blame on GUBBO.

vrock

[Stephen Tu]

virgosrock, on 2018-May-29, 03:42, said:

It is quite rare but I am with GUBBO (Ginsberg's Untelligent Bridgeplayer on BBO) on this one.
1d-1h-2S. now most likely it bids 2NT showing it has a poor hand. maybe someone can confirm this. or it bids 3d though that is positive.

With std bidding, 2S is a GF jump shift, there is not really any need for "negative" because you are in a GF no matter what you do. So there is no need for North to bid a misdescriptive 2nt with zilch in clubs, it can just bid 3D directly.
This is not at all like 1c-1s-2H, where 2nt is a negative, because the min for a reverse is a Q to a K lighter than a jump shift depending on agreements, and you want a way to sign off in a partial.


To OP: I don't know why you think 1h deny 4cd S. North can be 4-4, 4-5, 4-6 in majors and respond 1h.

[virgosrock]

Stephen Tu, on 2018-May-29, 04:37, said:

With std bidding, 2S is a GF jump shift, there is not really any need for "negative" because you are in a GF no matter what you do. So there is no need for North to bid a misdescriptive 2nt with zilch in clubs, it can just bid 3D directly.
This is not at all like 1c-1s-2H, where 2nt is a negative, because the min for a reverse is a Q to a K lighter than a jump shift depending on agreements, and you want a way to sign off in a partial.


To OP: I don't know why you think 1h deny 4cd S. North can be 4-4, 4-5, 4-6 in majors and respond 1h.

thanks for the 2 NT clarification. I just wasn't 100% sure. I seemed to recall once it did respond 2NT in a similar auction and blurb said "weak". But am not 100% sure. I recall being surprised since I thought likewise re 2NT.

vrock

[kenberg]

dlittmann, on 2018-May-28, 20:26, said:

Even were I to use a 2S rebid - the Bot's actions were still unexplainable - with a 5 card suit and lousy points, and then a return to my initial suit. Especially when you mouse over the bids and it keeps saying that the bid means progressively longer hearts, which it obviously did not have. Additionally, the bot knew there was at a minimum a 5-3 diamond fit, with at best a 5-2 heart fit. Preference for a 4H game with those lousy hearts in a 5-2 vs. a known 8 card fit is a terrible programming error.


Also - I'm not agreeing that a 2S bid is proper here - the bot has already denied a 4 card spade suit with the 1H bid following a pass. There is no possibility of the bot using a responder reverse to show opening points - the max it can have is 10-12 (and likely 9 or less based on the bidding).

There are many points of discussion with this hand.

1. Gib (or a human) knows that you have at least four diamonds. I am assuming you would open a 3 card diamond suit only when your shape is 4=4=3=2. I am pretty sure that this is the Gib style. After 1D-1H-2NT you do not have that shape so you have 4+ diamonds.

2. Gib's 3D is reasonable based on the view that playing in a suit might be right.. Moreover, with his five diamonds and stiff club, playing in 6D might be right, and it is. So 3D is fine.

3. As mentioned before, I don't understand your 3NT. Partner has suggested that a suit contract might be better than a NT contract. If I had the hand you have, I would be strongly inclined to listen to my partner on this.

4. 1D-1H-2NT is passable. That's a pretty good hand to be making a passable call.

5. As has been mentioned, a jumps shift rebid of 2S is not the same as a reverse bid such as 1D-1S-2H. The 2S jump shift (into a suit) is game-forcing, the reverse is strong and forcing for one round but not game forcing. 1D-1H-2NT is not forcing at all (as most, I believe including the bots, play).

6. The auction 1D -1H does not preclude four spades in responder's hand, the auction 1D-1H-2NT-3D probably does unless there are artificial agreements to the contrary. As many of us play, 1D-1H-2NT also does not preclude four spades in opener's hand. Thus we need a way to find the spade fit if it exists, and I play that 1D-1H-2NT-3S shows four spades, simply offering a choice of games. So the objection, my objection, to the 2NT rebid is not that you might miss a spade fit but rather that it mis-describes both your shape (you need 2 or 3 hearts) and your strength (your hand is too strong for this passable bid).

So there are many opportunities here for discussion with a partner. Of course bots will not be listening. But I might give this hand to a live partner and ask him how he thinks the auction should go to get to 6D. Surely 1D-1H-2S-3D looks like a good start.

However, after the passable 2NT and the discouraging 3NT, I agree that partner could let it be in 5D, and if not that then in 6D. Bots get excited sometimes..

[virgosrock]

kenberg, on 2018-May-29, 06:41, said:

There are many points of discussion with this hand.

1. Gib (or a human) knows that you have at least four diamonds. I am assuming you would open a 3 card diamond suit only when your shape is 4=4=3=2. I am pretty sure that this is the Gib style. After 1D-1H-2NT you do not have that shape so you have 4+ diamonds.

2. Gib's 3D is reasonable based on the view that playing in a suit might be right.. Moreover, with his five diamonds and stiff club, playing in 6D might be right, and it is. So 3D is fine.

3. As mentioned before, I don't understand your 3NT. Partner has suggested that a suit contract might be better than a NT contract. If I had the hand you have, I would be strongly inclined to listen to my partner on this.

4. 1D-1H-2NT is passable. That's a pretty good hand to be making a passable call.

5. As has been mentioned, a jumps shift rebid of 2S is not the same as a reverse bid such as 1D-1S-2H. The 2S jump shift (into a suit) is game-forcing, the reverse is strong and forcing for one round but not game forcing. 1D-1H-2NT is not forcing at all (as most, I believe including the bots, play).

6. The auction 1D -1H does not preclude four spades in responder's hand, the auction 1D-1H-2NT-3D probably does unless there are artificial agreements to the contrary. As many of us play, 1D-1H-2NT also does not preclude four spades in opener's hand. Thus we need a way to find the spade fit if it exists, and I play that 1D-1H-2NT-3S shows four spades, simply offering a choice of games. So the objection, my objection, to the 2NT rebid is not that you might miss a spade fit but rather that it mis-describes both your shape (you need 2 or 3 hearts) and your strength (your hand is too strong for this passable bid).

So there are many opportunities here for discussion with a partner. Of course bots will not be listening. But I might give this hand to a live partner and ask him how he thinks the auction should go to get to 6D. Surely 1D-1H-2S-3D looks like a good start.

Even if one thinks GUBBO has denied 4S - not sure why one would think thus - it is a good bid to show strength and distribution. Immediately shows 5+D and 4+S for sure and GF strength.
For all you know GUBBO has 6 clubs. And you need GUBBO to show d support.

vrock

vrock

[kenberg]

virgosrock, on 2018-May-29, 07:48, said:

Even if one thinks GUBBO has denied 4S - not sure why one would think thus - it is a good bid to show strength and distribution. Immediately shows 5+D and 4+S for sure and GF strength.
For all you know GUBBO has 6 clubs. And you need GUBBO to show d support.

vrock

vrock

Or to put it another way, you bid 2S because why on earth would you do anything else?

[virgosrock]

kenberg, on 2018-May-29, 08:43, said:

Or to put it another way, you bid 2S because why on earth would you do anything else?

haha Ken

vrock

[dlittmann]

Stephen Tu, on 2018-May-29, 04:37, said:

With std bidding, 2S is a GF jump shift, there is not really any need for "negative" because you are in a GF no matter what you do. So there is no need for North to bid a misdescriptive 2nt with zilch in clubs, it can just bid 3D directly.
This is not at all like 1c-1s-2H, where 2nt is a negative, because the min for a reverse is a Q to a K lighter than a jump shift depending on agreements, and you want a way to sign off in a partial.


To OP: I don't know why you think 1h deny 4cd S. North can be 4-4, 4-5, 4-6 in majors and respond 1h.

I'm not sure where you think a passed hand by partner is going to give you a reverse to show a 4H/4S hand - but that would be the bid if it went:

N:P E:P S:1D W:P N:(already passed, less than 12 points here) 1H E:P S:2NT (or 2S) (Reverse showing 18+ HCP) W:P N:3S (in an opening sequence, unpassed this is a 13+ responder hand, already denied having 13+ points)

But hey, if ya'll swear up and down ya'll wouldn't be pissed at partner using a responder reverse with 7 HCP, let that system work for you - I've been yelled at WAY too many times for doing exactly that by too many very high ranked players.

[dlittmann]

kenberg, on 2018-May-29, 08:43, said:

Or to put it another way, you bid 2S because why on earth would you do anything else?

Since when would that show 5/4? It shows 4/4 in every book I've ever read, and could be 3/4 depending on how your partnership opens 4-3-3-3 hands with 18-19 points.

[dlittmann]

Well, I appreciate the bidding advice - but since regardless - the bot went insane thinking there was AT BEST a 5/2 heart hit and choosing it over a 5/3+ diamond fit - and then rebidding a lousy ass suit that had no chance, especially when it was denied 3 times in the auction, that the South hand had any values in that suit.

I'm 100% fully convinced that the bot would have done exactly the same bidding if I bid 2NT or 2S. What's even worse is over my 2NT bid, the bot could have (and should have) bid 3C (New Minor Forcing) to show the 5th heart - which it did not. The bot never should have had interest in slam - except that it had 5 diamonds and an actual known fit - which it wasn't interested in due to the weakness of those diamonds.

But regardless - thank you for the chastisement on using a wasted 2S reverse when the successive heart bids are the problem.