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Basic defensive signals again What is "standard" here ?

#1 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-May-04, 02:28

Hi all,
I am curious to know which is the standard meaning in a totally UNDISCUSSED pship, between good players, in the following situation.

We are either in a notrump contract OR in a suit contract and trumps have been drawn.
Declarer (South) runs a long suit

Spoiler
AKQJTxx


9742
Spoiler
x


Spoiler
x


Is first discard BY WEST (following suit) count or suit preference ?
What about 2ndand later discards ?
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#2 User is offline   42 

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Posted 2005-May-04, 03:30

In my area it is standard among the best players to signal without discussion in this way:

a.) trump contract:
1. discard in a suit that has not been touched before = attitude (direct), the majority uses UDCA, standard carding must be discussed :)
2. discard in the same suit = length,
3. discard in the same suit = Lavinthal.

b.) NT:
1. Lavinthal
2. length

Caren
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#3 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-May-04, 03:35

42, on May 4 2005, 09:30 AM, said:

In my area it is standard among the best players to signal without discussion in this way:

a.) trump contract:
1. discard in a suit that has not been touched before = attitude (direct), the majority uses UDCA, standard carding must be discussed :)
2. discard in the same suit = length,
3. discard in the same suit = Lavinthal.

b.) NT:
1. Lavinthal
2. length

Caren

:-)

The question here is the meaning of WEST cards, when following suit.

What does it mean if he plays 9 then 7 then 4 then 2 ?
What does it mean if 2 then 4 then 7 then 9 ?
And what about 9 then 2 then 4 ?

Etc.

Ciao :-)
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#4 User is offline   Brandal 

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Posted 2005-May-04, 03:45

Chamaco, on May 4 2005, 04:35 AM, said:

1.What does it mean if he plays 9 then 7 then 4 then 2 ?
2.What does it mean if 2 then 4 then 7 then 9 ?
3.And what about 9 then 2 then 4 ?

Etc.

Ciao :-)

1. creditcard code
2. two four seven nine,wanna be my valentine?
3. I have a Porsche 924

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#5 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-May-04, 03:50

Brandal, on May 4 2005, 09:45 AM, said:

2. two four seven nine,wanna be my valentine?

This agreement should be posted in the "expert section", here we are still in the BIL section... :)
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#6 User is offline   42 

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Posted 2005-May-04, 04:05

I did several things at the same time and rushed through the posting... :)

ok: since count makes no sense here, the first discard would be suit preference:
9 and 7 -> highest ranking suit, 9-4-2 highest with more interest also in the 2. highest suit and so on..... Poor p must find 6 discards :huh:

Caren
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#7 User is offline   42 

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Posted 2005-May-04, 04:39

Quote

2. two four seven nine, wanna be my valentine?


Brandal, I can tell you from experience that there exists a better way to signal THAT: do it already during bidding and pass i.e. a gameforcing 3. That saves some energy and makes clear very early that bridge is not what you have in mind right now :)
Caren
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#8 User is offline   Brandal 

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Posted 2005-May-04, 04:52

42, on May 4 2005, 05:39 AM, said:

Quote

2. two four seven nine, wanna be my valentine?


Brandal, I can tell you from experience that there exists a better way to signal THAT: do it already during bidding and pass i.e. a gameforcing 3. That saves some energy and makes clear very early that bridge is not what you have in mind right now :huh:
Caren

So that's why they were always taken.....
My signals were too mixed too late

:)
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#9 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-May-04, 06:59

Suit pref. No one cares about count in this situation.
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#10 User is offline   PriorKnowledge 

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Posted 2005-May-04, 09:38

I think it is reasonable to argue that the FIRST card in this situation is count as partner may be stressed and needs to know count immediately. But the SECOND card is definitely suit preference.

Very few experts play Lavinthal anymore. More play Roman Discards (odd/even on first discard). Even more play UDCA (Upside Down Count & Attitude) + Smith Echo versus NT. A few also play Foster Echo versus Suits.

The advantages of UDCA are:
1. You may not be able to afford a high card in a suit you want to save.
2. You usually can afford a high card in suits you don't care about
3. UDA is more difficult to false card against.
4. Playing both UDC & UDA against suits allows you to play a 2 from 92 as both a come-on and a doubleton.

Some play UDCA+UDSF (Upside Down Suit Preference). I have not figured out the advantage of UDSF, can someone please tell me?
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#11 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 12:09

I think most people give SP both when following suit to a running suit, and, if they had fewer than three cards in the suit, also suit preference. Suppose this was tricks 2-9 in a NT slam, and I had two cards to follow, i would play high low = not the bottom suit, and then a low pip on the first discard for the middle of the three remaining suits.

If I followed with a singleton, I would just give SP with the next two cards, then count.

However, there are many many exceptions where it is "obvious" that partner has some information that he critically needs and you need to give him that.
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#12 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 13:35

Eh what... this isn't N/B material.
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#13 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 14:58

When following suit, initially partner should be giving attitude. When it becomes obvious that the suit is running, partner will give suit preference.

One would give count if count seems to be appropriate at the time. But attitude is the default first priority.
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#14 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 15:13

View PostArtK78, on 2012-March-20, 14:58, said:

When following suit, initially partner should be giving attitude. When it becomes obvious that the suit is running, partner will give suit preference.

One would give count if count seems to be appropriate at the time. But attitude is the default first priority.


Hmm? In a suit declarer is running?[I think count is standard in a suit opps lead unless it's obvious the suit is running, after which SP is default]
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#15 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-March-21, 07:12

With 4 cards you have enough ways to show pretty much anything you like, even in a NT contract with 3 suits available. For example you might define:-

9742 = strong signal for high suit
9724 = weak signal for high suit
9472 = positive for high -> middle, negative for low
9427 = positive for high -> middle -> low
9274 = positive for high -> low, negative for middle
9247 = positive for high -> low -> middle

7942 = positve for middle -> high, negative for low
7924 = positve for middle -> high -> low
7492 = strong signal for middle suit
7429 = weak signal for middle suit
7294 = positve for middle -> low -> high
7249 = positve for middle -> low, negative for high

4972 = weak preference for high -> middle (or no real preference)
4927 = weak preference for high -> low (or no real preference)
4792 = weak preference for middle -> high (or no real preference)
4729 = weak preference for middle -> low (or no real preference)
4297 = weak preference for low -> high (or no real preference)
4279 = weak preference for low -> middle (or no real preference)

2974 = positve for low -> high -> middle
2947 = positve for low -> high, negative for middle
2794 = positve for low -> middle -> high
2749 = positve for low -> middle, negative for high
2497 = weak signal for low suit
2479 = strong signal for low suit

and I would expect all "good players" to play at least some subset of these, even if only 2479 and 9742. Such carding agreements are hardly Novice-Beginner fodder though! Where you have only 2 suits to consider, such as a suit contract, you have even more scope. I doubt very many have explicitly discussed every possible such carding sequence but rather just use general rules - the sequences above are produced from such a ruleset, for example.
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#16 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-March-21, 07:46

Signalling should be moved to I/A.
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#17 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-March-21, 09:30

What is "SP". What is a "pip"?

I'm so confused, someone please help.
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#18 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-March-21, 10:12

View PostPhil, on 2012-March-21, 09:30, said:

What is "SP". What is a "pip"?

I'm so confused, someone please help.

Well, as you are so new here Phil: SP is suit preference. It means giving a signal to show which of the other suits you prefer. A pip is a card of lower value than a picture card. In bridge that means anything between the 2 and the 10. In some contexts players might choose not to treat the 10 (specifically) as a pip; in rarer cases the 9 might also be excluded. Don't worry about that though, as you get more experience you will learn about these if you need to.
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