[mr1303_2]

---

The excellent fit in clubs and the diamond shortage made this slam virtually a lay down, and the trump lead make all 13 tricks easy.

But who should do something different?

[Tramticket]

I think that all bids are fine up to the 4♣ bid. But North can now afford to cue-bid 4♦, showing first or second round diamond control. This might encourage South to cue-bid beyond game or even bid RKCB direct.

[gszes]

North failed to take into consideration just how much better their hand was compared to what a minimum 3h raise would look like. Imagine xxx xxxx Kxx Kxx would YOU raise to 3h in this bidding? If so, how much better is your hand now that south has made a slam try and shown the club ace (surely they are not short in both spades and clubs). I would not stop below the 5 level with this hand so for now I make my cheapest cue bid 4d and if partner tries to sign off in 4h I bid 5c. If I had 2 small diamonds instead of a singleton I would have bid 5c immediately. Do not feel too badly though because the opps put a lot of pressure on your bidding and 4h is hardly the worst place to play.

[pescetom]

Tramticket, on 2018-September-04, 05:13, said:

I think that all bids are fine up to the 4♣ bid. But North can now afford to cue-bid 4♦, showing first or second round diamond control. This might encourage South to cue-bid beyond game or even bid RKCB direct.

South should definitely feel encouraged, and if they continue to cue-bid with Turbo then it soon becomes evident to North that they have slam.
South could call it too with RKCB, but only with Specific Kings and thanks to a little luck.

[The_Badger]

When South makes an encouraging noise towards slam with 4♣, North's hand with its 3♠s, singleton ♦ and KQ of ♣s looks even better. 4♦ from me is automatic.

[rmnka447]

North could bid 3 ♠ with a really good ♥ raise. So 3 ♥ limits North's hand. South's 4 ♣ is a control bid and slam try for if South just had game interest 4 ♥ would be bid.

At each point in the auction, a player should ask "Has my hand has gotten better or worse based on the bidding so far?" and "Has my previous bidding fully shown my values?" With North's hand, it should be apparent that the 4 ♣ control bid makes ♣ KQxxx more valuable and that the values of the hand haven't been fully shown as yet. So North should cooperate with opener in looking for slam by bidding 4 ♦ to show a ♦ control.

[mikeh]

gszes, on 2018-September-04, 05:30, said:

North failed to take into consideration just how much better their hand was compared to what a minimum 3h raise would look like. Imagine xxx xxxx Kxx Kxx would YOU raise to 3h in this bidding? If so, how much better is your hand now that south has made a slam try and shown the club ace (surely they are not short in both spades and clubs). I would not stop below the 5 level with this hand so for now I make my cheapest cue bid 4d and if partner tries to sign off in 4h I bid 5c. If I had 2 small diamonds instead of a singleton I would have bid 5c immediately. Do not feel too badly though because the opps put a lot of pressure on your bidding and 4h is hardly the worst place to play.

I wouldn't raise to 3H on that xxx xxxx Kxx Kxx hand: I think that doing so is needlessly aggressive. One thing that many aggressive bidders forget, in competition, is that partner is still there. It would be virtually impossible that we can make game and that partner will pass out 2S or not double 3S should rho stick that bid in. Of course, one needs to pass smoothly, or else partner will be constrained on borderline hands.

Bidding this flat 6 count as if it were a decent 9 count means that opener must frequently pass and miss a game when you hold a real 3H raise or, more likely, overbid to a hopeless game. Too many players feel that they have to make all the partnership decisions.

Of course, having said that, North has a clear 4♦call after that magical 4C cue by partner. Even absent the cue, responder has a good inference that partner has a spade stiff (or unlikely void), and the cuebid, which is a slam move, makes no sense at all if opener has two spade losers.

So we are already picturing good hearts and the club Ace, with a stiff spade. Should partner hold the diamond Ace, then slam is very good.

4D sends that message, along with showing either 1st or 2nd round control. Now, this could mislead partner, who might be looking at the diamond King, but even so there should be 5-level safety because of our 4th trump and our long, good, clubs. Keycard will resolve the diamond Ace issue.

Getting back to your first point, about how good this hand is compared to a minimum, in my view this is not, at the time we bid 3H, a very good raise. We have the death holding in spades, and our hearts are weak and we hold no aces.

However, this hand is a prototypical example of how an auction can cause us to significantly change our view of a hand. While our spade holding was a negative over 2S, it has become a huge plus after the raise and partner's cue bid. We have no wastage and we are certain that partner has spades controlled. Meanwhile the club suit, that was of uncertain value (picture partner with xxx and the club Ace almost surely offside) has exploded in value, to be worth at least 4 tricks most of the time and often 5, and of course our stiff diamond is great as well, since for partner to be slamming he almost surely has something there.

While the hand is of some 'interest', I would have suggested posting this in the I/A forum for these reasons: it is a wonderful instance of how to think during an auction.

[cherdano]

I mostly agree but I also have some sympathy for North. Usually you don't go wrong if you bid conservatively with T97x of trumps and no keycards. Yes, we know ♣KQ is working great, but we don't know the diamond singleton is. If we go down in 5♥ opposite x AKxxx KQTxx Ax after [4C]-4♦-keycard, I don't think we could blame partner. Or maybe partner has x AKJxx AQxx Axx and will drive to six (not enough space to find out about ♥Q via keycard if you play 4N=1430).

[mikeh]

cherdano, on 2018-September-04, 15:21, said:

I mostly agree but I also have some sympathy for North. Usually you don't go wrong if you bid conservatively with T97x of trumps and no keycards. Yes, we know ♣KQ is working great, but we don't know the diamond singleton is. If we go down in 5♥ opposite x AKxxx KQTxx Ax after [4C]-4♦-keycard, I don't think we could blame partner. Or maybe partner has x AKJxx AQxx Axx and will drive to six (not enough space to find out about ♥Q via keycard if you play 4N=1430).

I'd rather be in slam, on the auction, on your second example, than stop in game. I'd be planning on playing east for Qxx in hearts (tho I'd pick up xxx as well). Your first example is scary, and likely down, but not for sure.

The main problem with not cue-bidding is that slam may be, as was, virtually cold and yet South may have no 5-level safety such that he can try one more time over 4C. He pretty much needs a spade void, and that simply isn't likely. It's not impossible: west might have made a 7 card weak jump out of fear for being vulnerable, or East a timid 4 card raise to 3 for the same reason, although in that case hearts are almost surely 2-2.

I think the main point is that one should not strain for slam when one has to imagine specific holdings where slam works, but equally one should not avoid exploring slam where one has to imagine specific holdings where doing so is unsafe.

[sfi]

My first thought looking at the North hand is that I would bid a fit-showing 4C if it is available. I'm comfortable with getting to game, and if partner goes looking for slam, we're probably going to be fine. I understand choosing 3H instead, but given my initial reaction, signing off with 4H is a criminal underbid.

[ahydra]

mikeh raises the point that North should view his Jxx of ♠ as a positive feature after the raise, since partner is known to be short. Clearly he's never played in my local club , but more practically, if you bid your shortage and partner also bids your shortage, you're likely to get overboard.

I don't think the North hand is particularly great, but he probably owes a cue after the 4C which turns that club suit into a big source of tricks. South has enough to try one more time anyway (e.g. North surely has at least something like Jxx Qxxx xxx Kxx), but it's understandable to pass. Of course, if North bids 4D then South isn't stopping short of slam.

ahydra

[dsLawsd]

I agree with sfi if it is available as my hand has gotten significantly better and we are headed for game no matter what. Partner can take it from there.

[mikeh]

Forcing to game is silly. Bridge is a partnership game, and far too many forum posters seem to think that overbidding shows that they are ‘good’ players. Yes, almost all top players are aggressive but, if you watch them carefully, you’ll see that they are disciplined. If you watch even more carefully, you’ll see that they pick their spots for aggression, based on the auction. Here, for example, once opener bids 4C our hand becomes far stronger than it was at the time of our first call.

Making a fit-jump is absurd. You will generate a minus out of a plus many times. Not only may 4H have zero play, but an intelligent partner will overbid significantly with many hands where slam is hopeless. A fit jump might look like xx AQxx xx KQxxx. Picture poor partner with x Kxxxx AKxx Axx. How could he not use keycard after a fit jump? Yes, hearts may be 2=2 with the Ace onside, but reaching 5H on these hands isn’t what anyone could call good bridge.

You don’t have a game force hand after 2S. You surely don’t have a hand where you need to bid game. Partner will bid game on any hand where game rates to be good, and meanwhile will stay low when game rates to be bad. Players who drive these hands to game as responder tend to remember only the hands when it worked out (and even then ignore that partner would have bid game anyway). Want to bid like an expert? Start thinking like one, and trust your partner.

[sfi]

mikeh, on 2018-September-05, 00:19, said:

Forcing to game is silly.

I don't think it's any sillier than bidding 3H. The truth is somewhere in the middle, and you have to guess which one to do if you don't have good agreements. I also think your example hand for 4C is about a trick too strong for the bid, so we clearly have different ideas about fit-showing jumps.

[maartenxq]

mr1303_2, on 2018-September-04, 04:15, said:

---

But who should do something different?

South should bid 3 ♠ imo. Now north can bid 4 ♣. South can do all kind of things ( 4 ♦ , 5 ♣) but should not stop below 6 ♥.

As it went north should cooperate with 4 ♦. Now things are more difficult but south shopuld make another move.

Maarten Baltussen

[nekthen]

maartenxq, on 2018-September-05, 02:40, said:

South should bid 3 ♠ imo. Now north can bid 4 ♣. South can do all kind of things ( 4 ♦ , 5 ♣) but should not stop below 6 ♥.

As it went north should cooperate with 4 ♦. Now things are more difficult but south shopuld make another move.

Maarten Baltussen

Over East's 3♠?

DIRECTOR!

[Cyberyeti]

sfi, on 2018-September-05, 01:21, said:

I don't think it's any sillier than bidding 3H. The truth is somewhere in the middle, and you have to guess which one to do if you don't have good agreements. I also think your example hand for 4C is about a trick too strong for the bid, so we clearly have different ideas about fit-showing jumps.

I think most play 4♣ as "values for game maybe slightly stretched" so Mike's example is fine. I would bid 3♣ over 1♥-(1♠) but not at the 4 level.

[msjennifer]

mr1303_2, on 2018-September-04, 04:15, said:

---

The excellent fit in clubs and the diamond shortage made this slam virtually a lay down, and the trump lead make all 13 tricks easy.

But who should do something different?

The way we play it, 4C bid guarantees at least a 2nd round spade control and the club Ace plus an obvious interest in slam.I,personally,would certainly show a second round control in Diamonds ,since it is below game level.by a bid of 4D as perhaps opener may be worried about Diamond losers.My KQ headed club suit is also going to provide discards for any of the losers in Diamonds /Clubs..

[msjennifer]

In my first post I did not make any comments on the 4C bid.I shall fully justify the bid .I specifically do not know how others will think about that bid.We use the losing trick count when a suit fit is guaranteed.The hand has one spade, two diamond and one club losers.There is no loser in heart suit as partner is known to have Qxx or xxxx in the heart suit. Partner has shown 8 losers However the diamond losers have to be taken care of and hence with a singleton spade card and the aces in both minors as also only two cards in clubs one must bid 4C in order to make him revalue his top honors and singleton/void in any of the minors.It would be indeed unfortunate to go down in 6H if West holds Heart Qxx and East has a void.

[cherdano]

mikeh, on 2018-September-04, 16:00, said:

The main problem with not cue-bidding is that slam may be, as was, virtually cold and yet South may have no 5-level safety such that he can try one more time over 4C. He pretty much needs a spade void, and that simply isn't likely. It's not impossible: west might have made a 7 card weak jump out of fear for being vulnerable, or East a timid 4 card raise to 3 for the same reason, although in that case hearts are almost surely 2-2.

I think the main point is that one should not strain for slam when one has to imagine specific holdings where slam works, but equally one should not avoid exploring slam where one has to imagine specific holdings where doing so is unsafe.

I think you are understating the danger. I think slam will usually be marginal at best, and often bad, when partner has diamond wastage. Or when partner's trumps are mediocre. We specifically need ♥AQK ♦A ♣A or ♥AK-6th ♦A ♣A for slam to be good, and partner doesn't need all that when he has diamond wastage.

As for the x AKJxx AQxx Axx hand - picking up trumps is not enough, as you also need clubs 3-2 when trumps are 3-1.