[straube]

I've noticed that 1C-1D (1H) systems are on with double showing either hearts or bigger and balanced....responder can pass for penalty.
Since 1C-1D (1H) pass is 17-20 balanced, what do you use 1N rebids for?

But 1C-1D (1S) systems are off. Curious about the decision here not to stay in relay. Was it a close call? It seems you're in a similar position to 1H interference but maybe not.

[foobar]

Don't see a way to establish and / or preserve relays over 1S without getting into +1 at least.

[nullve]

 foobar, on 2018-September-09, 12:13, said:

Don't see a way to establish and / or preserve relays over 1S without getting into +1 at least.

1M over 1♣-1♦ seems to be F1, so it should be possible to play

1♣-1♦-(1♠); ?:

P: same as 1♥ over 1♣-1♦, F1
...X: same as 1♠ over 1♣-1♦; 1♥
...(...)
X: same as 1♠ over 1♣-1♦, F1
(...).

[awm]

In general we don't this way when we're not already in a relay sequence. There are a few reasons:

1. In many cases we create a force in an unobstructed auction when we'd actually rather NOT be in a force, and we like to let opponents take us off the hook.
2. Showing a five+card suit tends to be really important here (since opponents may raise) and the canape-hearts style seems potentially worse.
3. Using double as takeout maximizes our ability to penalize. If double is "spades" then you can't really defend when responder has the spades.
4. Since double can be four bad spades you can't really defend when opener has spades either.

But for the most part we tend to just not really consider playing this way, because our chance of actually relaying is quite small (opener's LHO will often bid here too) and our chance of needing to communicate valuable information in a competitive auction (or be able to penalize) is pretty high.

[straube]

Do you then use 1C-1D (1S) dbl-1N as Lebensohl or is 2N Lebensohl?

[awm]

 straube, on 2018-September-09, 13:23, said:

Do you then use 1C-1D (1S) dbl-1N as Lebensohl or is 2N Lebensohl?

I don't think we play Lebensohl over one level bids. We do have 2S available as a strength showing call without clear direction.

[straube]

The auction gets interesting after 1C-1D (1H). We both have Pass available here. If pass is used for 17-20 balances then 1N is unassigned. Curious how you use yours.

My 1N rebid is normally forcing with 6H or 5H/4m so I want both to be able to show hearts as well as stay out of the auction when I believe that RHO has them. I’m thinking

Pass- many hands including heart hands that don’t wish to force.
.....dbl-gf balanced
.....1S-DN or severest unbalanced positives
..........1N-nf, 6H or 5H/4m
Dbl-17-20 balanced
1S-natural, systemic bid
1N-forcing with 6H or 5H/4m
Etc-systems on

[foobar]

My personal preference is to use a simple meta defence over 1C - 1D - (blah). It works by pretending that they opened the bidding and everything else follows from that (including the standard meaning for cue bids, unusual 2N etc).

If their bids are artificial, the actual semantics may change, but the basic scheme remains the same.

[straube]

 foobar, on 2018-September-09, 16:35, said:

My personal preference is to use a simple meta defence over 1C - 1D - (blah). It works by pretending that they opened the bidding and everything else follows from that (including the standard meaning for cue bids, unusual 2N etc).

If their bids are artificial, the actual semantics may change, but the basic scheme remains the same.

That approach works better for 1D negative than 1D DN or positive.

After say 1C-1D (1H) dbl

responder has a great deal of space for the DNs but not for the positives (which presumably have to bid 2H or higher). You could use some sort of Herbert Negative (e.g. 1S rebid is DN and forcing) which has its own problems but the positives (which are more frequent too) would have more comfortable auctions.

Maybe you need to assign the first two rebids for Herbert Negatives. Like...

1C-1D (1H) dbl
...............1S-DN promising a rebid
....................1N-what's your rebid?
...............1N-DN not promising a rebid
...............etc-positives

1C-1D (1H) 2H as Michaels =yuck.

[foobar]

 straube, on 2018-September-09, 22:20, said:

That approach works better for 1D negative than 1D DN or positive.

After say 1C-1D (1H) dbl

responder has a great deal of space for the DNs but not for the positives (which presumably have to bid 2H or higher). You could use some sort of Herbert Negative (e.g. 1S rebid is DN and forcing) which has its own problems but the positives (which are more frequent too) would have more comfortable auctions.

Maybe you need to assign the first two rebids for Herbert Negatives. Like...

1C-1D (1H) dbl
...............1S-DN promising a rebid
....................1N-what's your rebid?
...............1N-DN not promising a rebid
...............etc-positives

1C-1D (1H) 2H as Michaels =yuck.

Meant the meta defence over 1C - 1D - (1♠)+; as noted, over (1♥), we can remain in the system. It seems like using 1N / 2N as Lebensohl type bids with natural responses could work well in this context.