[PhilG007]

At Game All you pick up this welcome stranger
West deals and opens 4 Spades which is passed round to you. As you inwardly curse West,what action if any do you take?

---

[smerriman]

I don't know what 5♠ means but, unlike a double, partner isn't going to pass, so I'll try it.

[nullve]

 PhilG007, on 2018-September-09, 01:31, said:

As you inwardly curse West

You play X as penalty here?

 PhilG007, on 2018-September-09, 01:31, said:

what action if any do you take?

X (takeout), even if non-actions were available.

[The_Badger]

 PhilG007, on 2018-September-09, 01:31, said:

As you inwardly curse West, what action if any do you take?

LOL 4441 hands are notoriously awkward to bid with a 2♣ opener generally, and, what action if any do you take: as John McEnroe would say, "You cannot be serious!"

If X could be misinterpreted, I'm with smerriman bidding 5♠ too. Even if you get a reply after X'ing 4♠ you're hardly going to know if partner has the right cards for a contract at the five, six or, even, seven level.

5♠ might be a losing bid, but bidding is not a perfect science as we all know.

[eagles123]

5N

[sfi]

 smerriman, on 2018-September-09, 02:18, said:

I don't know what 5♠ means but, unlike a double, partner isn't going to pass, so I'll try it.

If partner would take 5NT as choice of slams, then 5S should show first-round spade control with a similar message. I'll try 5NT with a partner that would take it that way. Partner should have some chance to work out this is a three-suited hand rather than a two-suiter because I would bid 4NT with all two-suited hands.

But yes, I'm not doubling and giving partner the chance to pass.

[nullve]

 sfi, on 2018-September-09, 04:57, said:

I'm not doubling and giving partner the chance to pass.

Good point.

[The_Badger]

 sfi, on 2018-September-09, 04:57, said:

If partner would take 5NT as choice of slams, then 5S should show first-round spade control with a similar message. I'll try 5NT with a partner that would take it that way. Partner should have some chance to work out this is a three-suited hand rather than a two-suiter because I would bid 4NT with all two-suited hands.

But yes, I'm not doubling and giving partner the chance to pass.

Yes, that's an alternative way of dealing with this hand, but partner's hardly in control of the auction here (or knows that you have a hand with nine controls.) However, I think we all agree that bowing out before a small slam is bid is not an option.

It did go through my mind that bidding 5♠ does give partner an option of bidding 5NT to show the ♠A, that's a possible interpretation open to agreement, but at this level we are talking about specialist bids within a firmly-established expert partnership, and even if the ♠A is shown, where do we go from there: bidding 6♠? All highly speculative and on a wing and a prayer, I feel.

[sfi]

 The_Badger, on 2018-September-09, 06:15, said:

Yes, that's an alternative way of dealing with this hand, but partner's hardly in control of the auction here (or knows that you have a hand with nine controls.) However, I think we all agree that bowing out before a small slam is bid is not an option.

It did go through my mind that bidding 5♠ does give partner an option of bidding 5NT to show the ♠A, that's a possible interpretation open to agreement, but at this level we are talking about specialist bids within a firmly-established expert partnership, and even if the ♠A is shown, where do we go from there: bidding 6♠? All highly speculative and on a wing and a prayer, I feel.

I'm not sure it matters that much. Partner does know that I am forcing to a slam, so:

• If I bid 5NT and partner has the SA, they should be bidding the grand.
  
• If I bid 5S and partner has a useful ace/king, they should be bidding the grand.
  
• If I bid 5S and can make a grand opposite nothing more than a four-card suit, I'll bid it myself.
  
• If we need a key queen or shortage in a side suit to make 7 of something, well, preempts work at times. Other people will be in the same situation after all.

If partner bids 5NT over 5S, I think that would be more useful to show two places to play. That lets partner bid a suit at the six-level with a definite opinion about where to play. And I would take it that way undiscussed sitting opposite an expert. I may not have quite such a pure takeout shape for the bid, after all.

[The_Badger]

The other small consideration, which I am sure many have thought of, is given the bidding there's a more-than-usual-statistical-possibility of a poor trump break whatever contract we finish up in.

There's a distinct possibility that the opponents can play a forcing game and we will be shortened in trumps immediately, or, with such a control-rich hand we will be unable to get to dummy to take a vital finesse if trumps break 4-1 or 4-0 with East. But hey, c'est la vie.

[sfi]

True, but chances are reasonable that partner has a five-card suit somewhere. If we set that as trumps, we should be able to get over to dummy via a ruff and finesse against East's putative jack if required.

[msjennifer]

We play 5C as a TAKE OUT in such a case.It is beyond the scope of this forum to describe our bids for a SINGLE/TWO SUITED HANDS FOR A GAME /SLAM ambition.I would HUMBLY AND IN A LIGHTER VEIN, like to point out here that the opponents might be making a 7 SPADES DOUBLED contract with not even a double dummy defence available.SO BEWARE.!

[GrahamJson]

Hmm. Interesting. There clearly should be a difference between 5S and 5nT, but what is it? Going from first principles a cue bid normally shows a two suited hand whilst 5NT these days tends to be “pick a slam”. I therefore suggest bidding 5NT. The trouble with bidding 5S is that partner with, say 4153 might decide to bid 6C, afraid you might hold hearts and clubs. This contract might not be a success given the expected bad breaks. In contrast 5NT suggests a hand that is playable in three places. Of course, as others have already said, defending might be the best option as even a theoretically good slam might be going off on a ruff or bad trump break. However I suspect most will find it difficult to resist the temptation to try for twelve tricks.

[miamijd]

5NT seems pretty obvious, no?

[The_Badger]

I readily admit I am wrong here given how many expert commentators have voted for 5NT +1 to all of you. And yes, I agree 5NT is de rigueur bidding for "pick a slam" nowadays, and realistically a small slam should be on the cards and there's less likelihood of partner holding the ♠A, so pick a slam it is.

[thawp66]

As others have noted,given the significant possibility that a “normal” slam might go down with likely bad breaks, I would allow for the possibility that defending might be best. Hence, I would x, and raise partners response (if any) to 6.

[pescetom]

 msjennifer, on 2018-September-10, 09:54, said:

We play 5C as a TAKE OUT in such a case.It is beyond the scope of this forum to describe our bids for a SINGLE/TWO SUITED HANDS FOR A GAME /SLAM ambition.

Well now you have got us curious, come on.
How do you play 4NT and Double?