[Dinarius]

I agree.

In extremis, partner could could pass 1♦️ holding ♦️K.x, & ♣️J,x. Only 4 points, but 6♦️ is cold and you’re playing in 1♦️ passed out.

Such is the case for 2♣️ (as well as its preemptive value) though I accept that you can also construct hands where Opps can make 6 of a Major and outbid your 6♦️.

D.

[Cyberyeti]

Dinarius, on 2018-November-08, 09:00, said:

I agree.

In extremis, partner could could pass 1♦️ holding ♦️K.x, & ♣️J,x. Only 4 points, but 6♦️ is cold and you’re playing in 1♦️ passed out.

Such is the case for 2♣️ (as well as its preemptive value) though I accept that you can also construct hands where Opps can make 6 of a Major and outbid your 6♦️.

D.

It's very unlikely to get passed out, opps will rescue you 99.9% of the time if partner isn't bidding, too many major suit cards missing.

[Dinarius]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-November-08, 09:03, said:

It's very unlikely to get passed out, opps will rescue you 99.9% of the time if partner isn't bidding, too many major suit cards missing.

I agree. I was just giving an example in extremis.

In response to some other suggestions; any form of preempt is out of the question, in my view. Way too much playing strength.

So, 2♣, if you have it as a Benjamin strong but not game-forcing bid. Otherwise, 1♦.

For the record, here's the hand.

If those who preempted think they can bid 7NT, I'm all ears!

D.

Ps. and it's IMPs not MPs - not that it really matters.

---

[Dinarius]

Ps.

Note the wasted (unnecessary) cards in Partner's hand. Just shows the playing strength of West's hand.

Would any of you end up in 3NT after a 3♣ rebid by West? I presume not. But, playing catch-up with this hand is the key.

D.

[pescetom]

I bid 1♦ happy that after 1X we can bid 4♣ as RKCB(♦).

But otherwise I wouldn't have much compunction about bidding 2♣-4♦. There's nothing in our national rules that prevents this. By partnership agreement it's a game force, but that doesn't seem a huge or unjustified risk. The opponents are going to interfere but we can handle lower level flack quite well.


P.S. I wrote the above before seeing the hand. As it turns out, we could have bid to 7NT over either opening. Pass (which I would never have risked) works out well too.

[steve2005]

Dinarius, on 2018-November-08, 02:05, said:

The point is that if 2♦️ is the big hand (game force) then you can open 2♣️ - a less than game force hand.

So, 2♣️:2♦️ (negative) 3♦️ would should 8/9 tricks with ♦️, which pretty much describes the hand. 4♦️ rebid would show 10 tricks, if you had them.

So if 2♣ is big hand
2♦ - 2♥ neg 3♦ you have same meaning as 2♣-2♦-3♦ but played from right side

Some people do play Benjamin some Revere Benjamin

[msjennifer]

Sirs ,we bid it the old fashioned way.WE open this hand 5D.This bid asks responder to bid 6 holding one top honor from AKQ.If responder has one honor and an Ace outside he cue bids that Ace.We do not open this hand as either 2C or 1D as the opponents are shrewed enough to preempt the bidding to a high uncomfortable level.Also there are no 5 QUICK tricks to open the hands 2C.

[helene_t]

Dinarius, on 2018-November-08, 10:28, said:

If those who preempted think they can bid 7NT, I'm all ears!

If you open 6♦, partner might reason that you must have ♣A. It is hard to imagine a hand that opens at the 6-level having only one keycard.

[helene_t]

Tramticket, on 2018-November-08, 06:49, said:

For what it's worth, a 1♦ or 2♣ opening might work well and I would understand partner choosing either option. I would not understand partner choosing 5♦, 6♦ and especially not pass.

Yes you are probably right that I shouldn't pass partner's 3NT after having opened 1♦.

No I wouldn't consider pass and 5♦ seriously either. I just don't see the point of 2♣. I would give everything other than 1♦ and 6♦ a 0.

6♦ leads to the contract which we will most likely bid anyway and makes it maybe a bit more likely that opps will make the wrong sac decision or lead.

[The_Badger]

Dinarius, on 2018-November-08, 10:28, said:

.For the record, here's the hand.

---

Big lol!

And here's many of us concerning ourselves whether we might miss a slam when East has a few key cards, when in fact he has every key card for 7NT to be made. That's made my day, Dinarius

[miamijd]

Playing a standard expert type 2/1 system, I'm tempted to say WTP?

1D 1S
3C 3NT
4D

Now what?

[Cyberyeti]

miamijd, on 2018-November-08, 15:58, said:

Playing a standard expert type 2/1 system, I'm tempted to say WTP?

1D 1S
3C 3NT
4D

Now what?

To me this contains a series of terrible bids although not familiar with 2/1. I would respond 1♥ and consider 3N NF and I'm way too good for that.

Our auction:

1♦-1♥
2N(GF unbal)-3♣(semi forced)
3♦(ostensibly single suited, might just have clubs if lots of diamonds)-4♦
5♠(voidwood)-6♣(2 without)
6♠(I'm bidding 7♦, bid 7N with A♠)-7N

[miamijd]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-November-08, 16:14, said:

To me this contains a series of terrible bids although not familiar with 2/1. I would respond 1♥ and consider 3N NF and I'm way too good for that.

Our auction:

1♦-1♥
2N(GF unbal)-3♣(semi forced)
3♦(ostensibly single suited, might just have clubs if lots of diamonds)-4♦
5♠(voidwood)-6♣(2 without)
6♠(I'm bidding 7♦, bid 7N with A♠)-7N

Cyber:

I was going by the original poster's account of the bidding, not giving the bidding as I actually think it should have gone. That is, the OP (Dinarius) stated that if you open 1D, your partner would respond 1S. That is silly (1H is correct), but I didn't see the whole hand when I posted, only Dinarius' statement that if you opened 1D, your partner would bid 1S. And of course, 3NT is awful after 3C (you are much too strong), but Dinarius said that if you bid 3C, partner would bid 3NT. That's all I had to go on.

Looking at both hands, a fairly simple auction seems to be something like:

1D ***** 1H
3C ***** 3S
4D ***** key card
0/3 **** queen ask
Qd+Kc ** 7NT

There are many other roads, of course. Shouldn't be that difficult.

[Dinarius]

helene_t, on 2018-November-08, 14:27, said:

6♦ leads to the contract which we will most likely bid anyway and makes it maybe a bit more likely that opps will make the wrong sac decision or lead.

And which contract might that be? 6♦️?

In any half decent room everyone will be in a slam on this hand. At MPs, if you’re in 6♦️, you will score zero, or near zero.

Barging 6♦️ scores a zero from me. It’s worse than the pass that someone else suggested.

Arguing that it keeps the Opps out of a sac they might/might not make is yet another variation on bidding the other players’ hands rather than your own. A cardinal sin IMO.

This hand is way too strong for any pre-empt.

D.

[Dinarius]

The_Badger, on 2018-November-08, 15:52, said:

Big lol!

And here's many of us concerning ourselves whether we might miss a slam when East has a few key cards, when in fact he has every key card for 7NT to be made. That's made my day, Dinarius

And which is why any talk of basing our opening bid on what the Opps might do is ridiculous. 😉

D.

[Dinarius]

miamijd, on 2018-November-08, 15:58, said:

Playing a standard expert type 2/1 system, I'm tempted to say WTP?

1D 1S
3C 3NT
4D

Now what?

As long as 3♣️ is a game force (which it should be) and as long as P doesn’t start to prefer his ♣️ (Taking you for 5/5?) and as long as he sees the value of KJ♦️, now RKCB agreeing ♦️?

If P is then happy and puts you in 7♦️. I think it is now up to you to show your true shape (& all those ♦️ tricks) and convert to 7NT. I don’t think that P can bid it himself. After RKCB, 7♦️ would show the other two aces and ♦️K.

D.

[Dinarius]

miamijd, on 2018-November-08, 17:52, said:

Cyber:

I was going by the original poster's account of the bidding, not giving the bidding as I actually think it should have gone. That is, the OP (Dinarius) stated that if you open 1D, your partner would respond 1S. That is silly (1H is correct), but I didn't see the whole hand when I posted, only Dinarius' statement that if you opened 1D, your partner would bid 1S. And of course, 3NT is awful after 3C (you are much too strong), but Dinarius said that if you bid 3C, partner would bid 3NT. That's all I had to go on.

Looking at both hands, a fairly simple auction seems to be something like:

1D ***** 1H
3C ***** 3S
4D ***** key card
0/3 **** queen ask
Qd+Kc ** 7NT

There are many other roads, of course. Shouldn't be that difficult.

In RKCB, surely not 0/3 but instead 5♠️ showing 2 + trump Q? That makes 7 easy, no?

Also, my mistake on P response. Of course 1❤️. Apologies. But, in your sequence, 3♠️ reverse would show 5❤️ in my methods.

D.

[johnu]

msjennifer, on 2018-November-08, 12:59, said:

Sirs ,we bid it the old fashioned way.WE open this hand 5D.This bid asks responder to bid 6 holding one top honor from AKQ.If responder has one honor and an Ace outside he cue bids that Ace.

I've never heard of that treatment for the minor suit 5 level openings. It is (or should be) standard for 5 level major suit openings.

[miamijd]

Dinarius, on 2018-November-09, 01:58, said:

In RKCB, surely not 0/3 but instead 5♠️ showing 2 + trump Q? That makes 7 easy, no?

Also, my mistake on P response. Of course 1❤️. Apologies. But, in your sequence, 3♠️ reverse would show 5❤️ in my methods.

D.

Yes you are right. 2+Q, which makes 7NT simple.

After

1D 1H
3C ??

3S is a type of fourth suit forcing bid that first asks partner about a spade stop. I'll get to it in a minute.

Unless you are 5/6 or something like that, there is no point exploring a spade contract, because you know partner doesn't have four of them.

If you want to explore a heart contract, you should have five really good ones or else six, because it's unlikely partner has 3 on this bidding. Possible, certainly (he could be 1354 or 0364), but not likely. If you have five good hearts, you can bid 3H. 100% forcing; shows five goodish hearts or else 6+.

3S is used for hands that don't really know what to do at this point. There are two main type of hands like that:

1. You have a weak hand with no spade stop. You want to play 3NT if partner has a stopper, but in one of partner's minors otherwise.
2. You have something like 5-6 in the majors with strong suits and 0-1 of partner's diamonds
3. You have a strong hand with support for one of partner's minors (too good to just to raise to 4m; you plan to remove 3NT to 4m to show this hand)
4. You have a rock-crusher opposite a jump shift

When you bid 3S, partner will generally do the following:
1. Bid 3NT with a spade stop
2. Lacking a spade stop, bid 4C with 5+ clubs
3. Lacking either 1 or 2, bid 4H with 3 hearts
4. Lacking any of the above, bid 4D

Here, you bid 3S because you have the slam-force rock-crusher. I suppose you could just jump to 7NT over 3C (GIB would do that), but it doesn't hurt to bid 3S, remove 3NT or 4C to 4D to set trump (if partner rebids 4D, that will do it), and then have somebody key-card just to make sure you have the Qd. Once you find out about that card, you are in 7NT all day.

Cheers,
Mike

[mikeh]

Another 'I'm late to the thread'. Having see responder's hand, the auction to 7N is trivial but I think I have an entirely different take than do most.

1D 1H seems normal


There is no way I'm missing game at this point, even tho game need not be cold, so I can't risk the underbid of 3D and must go with the slight overbid (an overbid only in the sense that partner will expect more hcp/defence: the playing strength is more than adequate for the gf)..

Over 3C I think East has interesting things to consider. It is very, very difficult to imagine a jumpshift where partner lacks the diamond AQ, and our KJ are therefore huge. We could temporize with 3D, intending to keycard if given the opportunity. However opener would likely haul out exclusion, if in the tool box....4S

Now responder would bid 5D, 2 keycards without the Queen, and opener can bid 7D very easily, over which East would be within his rights to bid 7N

Otoh hand, responder might reason that, since he assumes AQ♦ over there, the critical suit may be clubs and in particular the club Queen, and the only way to find that out (in most foreseeable auctions) is by setting clubs, intending to correct to diamonds or, most likely, notrump.

Since our hand is so good, and partner did jumpshift with me holding the KJ of his primary suit, I won't bother setting clubs. If his clubs are not solid, he has major suit values on the side and they will fill in my suits nicely. So I bid 3D, and then eventually 7N.

As for the OP problem, this is a no-brainer to me: 1♦. In a bidding panel I'd give 1D 100, 5D maybe 20 (because it 'might' be a good preempt) and other actions 0.

We have a freak hand. Freak hands are often very difficult to bid in competitive auctions. It behooves us to avoid a situation in which, even if the opps pass throughout, we first mention our main suit at the 3-level.

Anyone who thinks that in the modern game the auction will proceed 1D P P P hasn't been playing or watching decent calibre bridge, at least not in the past 40+ years.