[hirowla]

Hi,

After a bad hand or two where my partner and I were on different wavelengths, I'd like to know how others distinguish between quantitative raises, Blackwood and agreeing on a trump suit in particular auctions.

I'll start with the simple ones:

1NT - 4NT, 1NT - 5NT, 2NT - 4NT, 2NT - 5NT is quantitative, so is 1NT - 5NT (asking between small and grand slams)

1NT - 2♣ - 2♦ - 4NT, 2NT - 3♣ - 3♦ - 4NT is quantitative. I didn't mention 5NT here because if you play 5NT pick-a-slam, I imagine it is applicable there. If not, that is quantitative.


Now some vague ones (at least from my perspective):

1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 4NT: don't know. Have we agreed hearts or not? If not, how do we do so? If yes, how do we show quantitative? Same with 1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 4NT
1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 3♣ (I guess showing a 4 card major and 5+ in ♣). Have we agreed on the major, the minor, or NT? How do we do a quantitative bid, or set the suit?

1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ - 4NT: I guess it's quantitative, asking for a pick of 5♥, 6♥, 6NT or 4NT. How do people explicitly confirm hearts (hence 4NT later would be keycard)?
2NT - 3♦ - 3♥ - 4NT: Same question as above, but you have less room

Is there a general rule in these auctions to distinguish? I have a temporary rule with my regular partner that after a transfer or some sequence involving suits (i.e minor suit Stayman) that 4NT is quantitative and if you want to confirm the suit you have to bid another suit before going 4NT. That works if you know the suit, but sometimes you don't (as shown above).

Any ideas on how to do this?

Thanks,

Ian

[helene_t]

After Stayman, 4NT is quantitative. To set suit first and Blackood afterwards, start by bidding the other major, which is an artificial raise.

After Jacoby Transfer, 4NT is quantative. To set trumps and subsequently Blackwood, use a Texas transfer instead.

[Stephen Tu]

What Helene said, but specifically over 1nt 2c 2h, you have to bid 3s, not just 2s, to agree hearts. 2s is usually invitational natural, with 4 or 5 spades depending on other agreements.

There is also an alternative common structure which uses 3 of the other major after 2 level stayman as an undisclosed splinter. Then 4c is rkc gerber, and 4d is quantitative with a fit, and no shortness. Known as "Baze"

[Cyberyeti]

I would advocate using 1N-2♣/♦-2♥-4♠ as blackwood, 4N as quant even if you don't use kickback anywhere else (same in the 2N sequences).

[phoenix214]

If it is not clear which suit is trumps then 4N should be quantitative. Also if 4N is INV to 6, then in the same sequence 5N should be inv to , to keep it simple.
In most of the auctions you have a way to set the trump suit, or an alternative sequence that allows to ask aces.

For 1N:
1N-2♣, 2M, i'd assume standard is to set trump with 3OM, though you may have a different method. THis means that if you just jump to 4N, then it is quanti.
1N-2♣, 2♥-3♣ - showing 5♣-4♠,(if you would have ♥ support, you bid 3♠, otherwise this gets really confusing really fast), now if p bids 4♣, 4N should be aces, while if p bids 3N, it should be quanti.
1N-2♦, 2♥ - 4N - again this is quantitative, if you would want to set the major as trumps first, you usually have a transfer on level 4(4♦, or 4♣) to do this.

Other examples:

1♥-4N? Normally you can set trumps with 2N, so this is again should not be asking aces in hearts - one note i've seen is that this is basically like gerber, just a general ace ask.
1♥-2♣(assuming it is GF), 2♦-4N - If you would want to set diamonds as trump, you bid 3/4D, if you would want to set H as trumps, you have 3H, if you would want C as trumps, 4C is that. hence 4N has to be quanti.

[RD350LC]

 hirowla, on 2018-November-23, 22:07, said:

Hi,

After a bad hand or two where my partner and I were on different wavelengths, I'd like to know how others distinguish between quantitative raises, Blackwood and agreeing on a trump suit in particular auctions.

I'll start with the simple ones:

1NT - 4NT, 1NT - 5NT, 2NT - 4NT, 2NT - 5NT is quantitative, so is 1NT - 5NT (asking between small and grand slams)

1NT - 2♣ - 2♦ - 4NT, 2NT - 3♣ - 3♦ - 4NT is quantitative. I didn't mention 5NT here because if you play 5NT pick-a-slam, I imagine it is applicable there. If not, that is quantitative.


Now some vague ones (at least from my perspective):

1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 4NT: don't know. Have we agreed hearts or not? If not, how do we do so? If yes, how do we show quantitative? Same with 1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 4NT
1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 3♣ (I guess showing a 4 card major and 5+ in ♣). Have we agreed on the major, the minor, or NT? How do we do a quantitative bid, or set the suit?

1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ - 4NT: I guess it's quantitative, asking for a pick of 5♥, 6♥, 6NT or 4NT. How do people explicitly confirm hearts (hence 4NT later would be keycard)?
2NT - 3♦ - 3♥ - 4NT: Same question as above, but you have less room

Is there a general rule in these auctions to distinguish? I have a temporary rule with my regular partner that after a transfer or some sequence involving suits (i.e minor suit Stayman) that 4NT is quantitative and if you want to confirm the suit you have to bid another suit before going 4NT. That works if you know the suit, but sometimes you don't (as shown above).

Any ideas on how to do this?

Thanks,

Ian

I am reviewing a book that William Root and Richard Pavlicek had written called "Modern Bridge Conventions" that I have had for a number of years. In general, they agree with all of the above statements, in that 4NT would be quantitative in all of the above mentioned auctions.
However, with the quality of players here, I have experienced people bidding a suit when I respond 4NT to a 1NT opener. Then I let them play it there-even if it is in a 2/2 fit. I then get a new (and hopefully better) partner.

[pescetom]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-November-24, 04:38, said:

I would advocate using 1N-2♣/♦-2♥-4♠ as blackwood, 4N as quant even if you don't use kickback anywhere else (same in the 2N sequences).

A natural and flexible alternative is to use
1N-2♣-2♥-3♠/4♣/4♦
and
1N-2♣-2♠-4♣/4♦/4♥
as control-showing cue-bids that fix trumps and show slam interest.

[Cyberyeti]

 pescetom, on 2018-November-24, 08:01, said:

A natural and flexible alternative is to use
1N-2♣-2♥-3♠/4♣/4♦
and
1N-2♣-2♠-4♣/4♦/4♥
as control-showing cue-bids that fix trumps and show slam interest.

We keep the minors as specifically splinters, using 3♠ to agree hearts and 4♥ to agree spades with slam aspirations after stayman.

We don't have the same issue over a transfer as we'd have started with 3M forcing and aspirations beyond game.

[masse24]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-November-24, 08:34, said:

We keep the minors as specifically splinters, using 3♠ to agree hearts and 4♥ to agree spades with slam aspirations after stayman.

We don't have the same issue over a transfer as we'd have started with 3M forcing and aspirations beyond game.

In the auction: 1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ - 3♥, what is 3♥ used for?

[pescetom]

 masse24, on 2018-November-24, 09:40, said:

In the auction: 1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ - 3♥, what is 3♥ used for?

I can't answer for @cyberyeti, but playing a standard 4-card Stayman I would expect it to indicate 4-card hearts and slam interest.
Opener denied hearts so responder must have good reason not to bid NT.

[hrothgar]

 pescetom, on 2018-November-24, 10:51, said:

I can't answer for @cyberyeti, but playing a standard 4-card Stayman I would expect it to indicate 4-card hearts and slam interest.
Opener denied hearts so responder must have good reason not to bid NT.

FWIW, without prior discussion I would expect that

1N - 2♣
2♠ - 3♥

shows a strong raise to 4♠, invites slam exploration, but does not necessarily promise a control

same with

1N - 2♣
2♥ - 3♠

[masse24]

 pescetom, on 2018-November-24, 10:51, said:

I can't answer for @cyberyeti, but playing a standard 4-card Stayman I would expect it to indicate 4-card hearts and slam interest.
Opener denied hearts so responder must have good reason not to bid NT.

As others have noted above, I would expect it to agree spades and indicate slam interest. Whether it indicates an ambiguous splinter would be up to partnership. The leap to 4♥ after 1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ to agree spades, show slam interest, but not show a splinter seems to be a terrific waste of available space. So I assumed there was some other use (unknown to me) for what is ostensibly an unnecessary 3♥ bid.

[Cyberyeti]

 masse24, on 2018-November-24, 09:40, said:

In the auction: 1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ - 3♥, what is 3♥ used for?

To find minor suit slams, a form of mSS

[Stephen Tu]

 RD350LC, on 2018-November-24, 07:22, said:

However, with the quality of players here, I have experienced people bidding a suit when I respond 4NT to a 1NT opener. Then I let them play it there-even if it is in a 2/2 fit. I then get a new (and hopefully better) partner.

I don't think passing is a good idea. A beginner likely is answering Blackwood. Get back to nt, teach them after the hand about quantitative raises.

But advanced players often utilize suit responses here also ... to seek out potential 4-4 minor slams which might offer better chances of a ruff for the twelfth trick.

[johnu]

 Stephen Tu, on 2018-November-25, 14:48, said:

I don't think passing is a good idea. A beginner likely is answering Blackwood. Get back to nt, teach them after the hand about quantitative raises.

But advanced players often utilize suit responses here also ... to seek out potential 4-4 minor slams which might offer better chances of a ruff for the twelfth trick.

Not just beginners answer Blackwood. If you are going to decline the 4NT invitation, you pass. If you decide to accept the slam invitation, it costs almost nothing to respond Blackwood just in case you are missing 2 aces. Whether you respond Blackwood or try to look for a 4-4 suit fit is a matter of partnership agreement. In the absence of any agreement, I would assume a Blackwood response.

[kenberg]

With discussion I like:playing that 1NT-2C-2M-3OM (so a non-jump to 3H if M=spades, a jump to 3S if M=hearts) sets M as trump. I suppose other uses could be found for 1NT-2C - 2S - 3H, but using it to set S as trump and showing enough values to consider slam seems reasonable and actually comes up from time to time.
I think that the auction 1NT-2C_2H-4NT is broadly played as invitational to slam, holding four spades. We get dealt hands where we have slam invitational values, four spades, and not four hearts. We need a way to bid that, and 1NT-2C-2H-4NT is a straightforward way to do it.

Here is something that came up recently:
1C - 1S - 1NT - 2D (new minor forcing) - 2H - ?
After this beginning, responder could have five (or more) spades, fewer than four hearts, and slam invitational values. Also he could have five spades, four hearts, and interest in a heart slam. With this particular partner, we were playing strong jump shifts so it seems reasonable that with five spades and a hand that is worth a slam try after 1C-1S-1NT the auction would instead have begun 1C-2S, thus the interest in slam must be because of a heart fit. So then maybe 1C - 1S - 1NT - 2D (new minor forcing) - 2H - 4NT should be rkc for hearts.
Note that 2 way new minor could be helpful sorting this out. Since 2D is then game forcing, you could set hearts simply by raising 2H to 3H. So then maybe 4NT is indeed the invit with five spades but lacking a heart fit.
But many play that 1C - 2S is weak and that 1C - 1S - 1NT -2D is new minor but not game forcing. Then I am uncertain just how it should go from there. Sometimes we want to invite a NT slam without a heart fit, sometimes we want to set hearts as trump and try for a slam.

All of which means that the interpretation of 4NT might depend on just what else you are playing.

[pescetom]

 masse24, on 2018-November-24, 11:04, said:

As others have noted above, I would expect it to agree spades and indicate slam interest. Whether it indicates an ambiguous splinter would be up to partnership. The leap to 4♥ after 1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ to agree spades, show slam interest, but not show a splinter seems to be a terrific waste of available space. So I assumed there was some other use (unknown to me) for what is ostensibly an unnecessary 3♥ bid.

To each his own agreements, but the leap you indicate is indeed a terrible waste of space and hardly necessary. After 1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ one can play 4♣/4♦/♥ as control-bids which agree spades and show slam interest, which makes no waste and frees 3♥ for use as a natural slam invite or conventional meanings.

[masse24]

 pescetom, on 2018-November-25, 16:36, said:

To each his own agreements, but the leap you indicate is indeed a terrible waste of space and hardly necessary. After 1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ one can play 4♣/4♦/♥ as control-bids which agree spades and show slam interest, which makes no waste and frees 3♥ for use as a natural slam invite or conventional meanings.

Try Baze.