[torgums]

Scoring IMPs
Neither side vulnerable

The auction

1S x 2S 3H
3S x

[Tramticket]

 torgums, on 2018-November-25, 03:46, said:

Scoring IMPs
Neither side vulnerable

The auction

1S x 2S 3H
3S x

The rest of the post seems to be missing.

[apollo1201]

Not penalty, some extras, no good fit for partner (e.g. 13(45) hand with 16-17 HCPs).

Partner might have 4H and 7-8 HCPs only so you can’t bid 4 with this hand, but would be delighted:
- if partner can bid them
- or to play in 4m
- or also you are not against partner sitting for 3SX if they have a suitable hand for this contract

The only way to convey this message is a second (neg) X to further invite partner collaboration. After all they showed some values but don’t know we have extras.

[apollo1201]

 Tramticket, on 2018-November-25, 05:40, said:

The rest of the post seems to be missing.

True. But given the title I imagined the missing part was « what is the 2nd dbl? » 🤣

[The_Badger]

The one thing it isn't as far as I'm concerned is a penalty double. Given that the opponents have based their auction on the Law of Total Tricks, the worse thing you can do is double the opponents in a part-score into game. Most players I assume would play it as a competitive double, showing extra values and asking partner to make the next decision, either 3NT, 4♥, possibly 4♣/♦ or occasionally to leave the double in.

[msjennifer]

Sir,I have never ever come across such a situation .IF the partnership has not discussed action to be taken after such bidding then it means the double shows extra values and no clear cut decision to make.Normally,since responders hand pattern is not established, it expresses a keenness to continue to 4H unless partner desires otherwise.One of my colleagues rather jokingly says "whatever you bid is wrong" after the outcome if it turns out disastrous.

[igt3]

I agree completely with apollo1201. This is exactly the hand I see [1-3-(45)]. It can´t suddenly be for penalty, but since partner bid 3H voluntarily he/she must have some values so it gives partner the option to pass the double.
I sometimes call these kind of doubles "I don´t know what to do. What do you think partner."-doubles.

[nekthen]

---

How do you bid this hand?

1S x 2S 3H
3S ?

Pass double or 3N?

[RD350LC]

 igt3, on 2018-November-26, 04:31, said:

I agree completely with apollo1201. This is exactly the hand I see [1-3-(45)]. It can´t suddenly be for penalty, but since partner bid 3H voluntarily he/she must have some values so it gives partner the option to pass the double.
I sometimes call these kind of doubles "I don´t know what to do. What do you think partner."-doubles.

I agree. I would call this double "Do something intelligent" double. Certainly NOT a penalty double-though partner could pass if he felt that was the best option.

[apollo1201]

 nekthen, on 2018-November-26, 05:00, said:

---

How do you bid this hand?

1S x 2S 3H
3S ?

Pass double or 3N?

I doubt we have 9 running tricks (H KQJ 5th from partner who can’t have much more?) so 3NT is out of the question.

4H could turn out badly if he is tapped (likely S singleton) with a (likely as well) bas trump break. But partner will rebid their H’s with 5 over a X. And he is more likely to have 5 (or 6) H than being 1444.

5m could be the best contract when partner has a 2nd suit, but we probably can’t get there (4NT is BW and not minor 2-suiter now, I guess, and I can’t know the correct suit).

Maybe pass and peacefully collect 50ies is the winning call after all.

But I’ll risk a X hoping partner finds the good rebid (any 16xx hand gives a good chance of 4H making) - they are probably not leaving it in unless oops are crazy.

[gordontd]

 nekthen, on 2018-November-26, 05:00, said:

---

How do you bid this hand?

1S x 2S 3H
3S ?

Pass double or 3N?

3N. Not double.

[nige1]

Nethken's hard problem
IMPs. Love all.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The initial double seems reasonable.
Now I rate.

1. Double = T/O. Minor suit interest.
2. 3N = NAT. ~19 HCP.
3. Pass = NAT. Timid.

---

[helene_t]

Nigel, 3♠ would be insufficient.

The choice is between 3NT and double. Partner likely has a small singleton in spades, in which case 3NT will require some luck. On the other hand, with 5 good hearts and/or a long minor he might take 3NT out.

Double looks a bit silly if partner turns out to have ♠K singleton. But with Kx and only four hearts he may bid 3NT himself.

I think I double. Partner is entitled to three hearts for me, but 4♥ will often be ok if he has five of them.

[HardVector]

 igt3, on 2018-November-26, 04:31, said:

I agree completely with apollo1201. This is exactly the hand I see [1-3-(45)]. It can´t suddenly be for penalty, but since partner bid 3H voluntarily he/she must have some values so it gives partner the option to pass the double.
I sometimes call these kind of doubles "I don´t know what to do. What do you think partner."-doubles.

I concur with this. Mike Lawrence calls these "Action" doubles.

[nige1]

 helene_t, on 2018-November-26, 14:28, said:

Nigel, 3♠ would be insufficient.

Thank you, Helene_T Corrected -- I'm increasingly error-prone

[rmnka447]

Double probably shows no more than 3 ♥ and extras. I could see it being either a hand like nige1 conceived or like apollo1201 suggested.

The doubler can't exactly know what the 3 ♥ bidder has. If doubler is holding 4 ♥, it would be proper to carry on to 4 ♥ rather than double because of the known 8+ card fit. If holding a ♠ stack, pass or a 3 NT bid would be proper because the 3 H bid implies some values. If holding the apollo1201 hand, it might be right to play in a minor, 3 NT if advancer has ♠ stoppers, or sit for 3 ♠ doubled depending on advancer's hand.

[mikeh]

somewhat off topic, but related. After the auction (1M) x (2M), what would 2N by advancer mean?

It is common amongst experienced players to use 2N as a form of lebensohl, showing a hand that wants to compete to the 3-level, but has no interest in game unless doubler has a huge hand. Should opener pass 2N, doubler is supposed to bid 3C with a normal takeout double (a bid of 3red would show a single-suited hand too strong to overcall), and now advancer passes or corrects.

The corollary to this very useful agreement is that an immediate 3x bid by advancer shows constructive values. By no means is it forcing, but it says that the action wasn't merely because of a desire to push the opps one higher or otherwise simply compete.

That colours the problem of what to do with Axx Ax AKQx Kxxx. If 3H promises constructive values, then game is very likely, the problem being which game.

Advancer usually has a stiff spade, although one can't always count on the opps knowing of or obeying the LOTT. If he has 5 hearts, then 4H is likely a good spot. After all, they can't tap him at trick 1, and he either has good hearts and/or he has something in clubs, either of which means that he can likely stand a 4-2 trump break. Meanwhile, if he has only 4 hearts, then he definitely has at least a 4 card minor, and most hands worth 3H on a 4 card suit will offer good play for 5minor.

Accordingly, I see the DSIP double as close to perfect. I think it pretty close to expert standard that this double will deliver 3 hearts 99% of the time, but we rarely get 20 hcp and see everyone bidding, so I think we're allowed to double here with this hand. Partner will bid 4H with 5; the only possible exception being if he has a side 5 card minor, and will otherwise bid his cheapest 4 card minor. He could, with a maximum 1=4=4=4, bid 4S, I suppose, but he can't have a good enough hand for that unless the opps are psycho.

3N is an unnecessary gamble, almost doomed to failure on the spade lead. There is very little likelihood of our running the first 9 tricks, and any layout where we can do so probably makes a suited game anyway.

Pass is silly, when we clearly have values for game and we are settling for a likely +100-150.

While I began this post by suggesting that lebensohl would help here, I think that the reasoning I have set out, although not as clearly apposite as if we played lebensohl, still makes double the stand-out action. It is slightly higher risk since partner may have stretched rather than passed, but the good news is that he is ever more likely to hold 5+ hearts if he is light.

[Stephen Tu]

Another possible use of 2nt besides lebensohl is to distinguish between 4 and 5 hearts, to make it easier to get somewhere else if doubler had 3 only.

[apollo1201]

 Stephen Tu, on 2018-November-26, 20:28, said:

Another possible use of 2nt besides lebensohl is to distinguish between 4 and 5 hearts, to make it easier to get somewhere else if doubler had 3 only.

With all the junk people nowadays open or support, especially with S, I think 2NT has a better use to be natural, 10+ to 12- HCPs, with stoppers. Terribly old school but efficient.
3-level’bids could therefore encompass a slightly bigger range than unopposed, eg 3m is 5-6 cards and 6-10 points or so, and 3H is somewhere between 4 cards 8-10 and 6 cards 5-8 points or so. And X is obviously minor-oriented.

[mikeh]

 apollo1201, on 2018-November-27, 16:37, said:

With all the junk people nowadays open or support, especially with S, I think 2NT has a better use to be natural, 10+ to 12- HCPs, with stoppers. Terribly old school but efficient.
3-level’bids could therefore encompass a slightly bigger range than unopposed, eg 3m is 5-6 cards and 6-10 points or so, and 3H is somewhere between 4 cards 8-10 and 6 cards 5-8 points or so. And X is obviously minor-oriented.

As someone who opens quite aggressively, and who raises aggressively, over a double (we have ways to distinguish good and weak 2 level raises), one might expect me to agree with you, but I don't. While some openings will be light, even light openers often have their values and the same can be said for light responders. So while on occasion one might wish to bid 2N on an 11 count with 2 stoppers (the idea of doing it with one stopper seems silly), one is far, far more likely to want to (a) compete on modest values with a 5+ suit or (b) compete with constructive values and, the critical point, to be able to let partner know when one has one or the other.

This, to me, is so important that I believe it to be a powerful IMP approach, let alone mps, where frequency of gain is more important than size of gain.

Now, if playing opps who announce that 1S is 8-15, as some meckwell lite players do, I reserve the right to change my mind.