[Cyberyeti]

---

And how do you bid differently with a bit less or a bit more to differentiate those hand types

Please note the descriptions on each call

1N 12-14
X pens
XX unspecified single suit, opener bids 2♣ pass or correct

[helene_t]

Here, pass is stronger than bidding. I think this is best in the long run although it beackfires when you have a very weak hand with a long minor, and partner bids a major after we pass.

I think we play the same if xx was business but I am not sure - maybe one should be a 1-suiter and the other should be scrambling.

[Cyberyeti]

 helene_t, on 2019-October-06, 14:10, said:

Here, pass is stronger than bidding. I think this is best in the long run although it beackfires when you have a very weak hand with a long minor, and partner bids a major after we pass.

I think we play the same if xx was business but I am not sure - maybe one should be a 1-suiter and the other should be scrambling.

Pass is stronger than bidding, but what is 3♠ for example ?

[mikeh]

Not sure why I care about my methods on the hand. I bid what I expect to at least have play: 4S

Now, with a slightly weaker playing hand, I bid with weakness and pass with values. I also pass with a better hand and no really clear direction

Had I, for example, Q109xx xxx xx xxx, I’d bid 2S now.

Note that with a weak hand, one may need to bid in order to win the part score battle. I pass, Lho bids 2C and even if I bid 2S next, Lho will know rho’s suit and be able to compete. I bid now, Rho may well be forced to pass without showing his suit and we may buy this at the 2level.

[helene_t]

 Cyberyeti, on 2019-October-06, 14:47, said:

Pass is stronger than bidding, but what is 3♠ for example ?

Maybe 2NT and upwards are transfers, showing GF hands or invitational one-suiters? Then pass followed by a suit bid could be a more flexible hand.

I just made it up. Actually I would prefer to have opener on lead.

Without discussion I would take 2NT as some strong 2-suiter, and 3x as a 1-suiter, forcing. Or maybe invitational?

[ahydra]

I must have missed a memo somewhere. If the XX was to play then certainly running is weak and pass suggests sitting. But here the XX is for takeout, so I would expect a direct bid to show a constructive hand and a balancing bid to be weaker with no desire to defend.

That said, whatever the methods, 4S looks clear.

ahydra

[helene_t]

 ahydra, on 2019-October-06, 15:53, said:

I would expect a direct bid to show a constructive hand and a balancing bid to be weaker with no desire to defend.

Maybe. I suppose the reason why many play a delayed bit as stronger than a direct bid is that it is analogous to
1banana-x-(xx)-pass
which contains strong hands, while a direct bid is weak.

But also, a strong hand can better afford to pass even if it means having to bid at the 3-level next round. And a strong hand is sometimes happy to defend doubled, which we can't do if we bid immediately.

That said, I don't think it matters so much.

[Cyberyeti]

 ahydra, on 2019-October-06, 15:53, said:

I must have missed a memo somewhere. If the XX was to play then certainly running is weak and pass suggests sitting. But here the XX is for takeout, so I would expect a direct bid to show a constructive hand and a balancing bid to be weaker with no desire to defend.

That said, whatever the methods, 4S looks clear.

ahydra

So you never take a penalty with a constructive hand ?

For us pass is almost anything that isn't a weaker hand than this with a long suit, which is why I asked about 3♠, as to whether it's this hand or Q10 7th and out.

[helene_t]

 Cyberyeti, on 2019-October-06, 17:26, said:

So you never take a penalty with a constructive hand ?

Presumably a constructive balanced hand passes first and then doubles next round.

Constructive unbalanced hands won't take a penalty with that method, but they won't take a penalty very often anyway, even if they can start with a pass.

[mikeh]

 Cyberyeti, on 2019-October-06, 17:26, said:

So you never take a penalty with a constructive hand ?

For us pass is almost anything that isn't a weaker hand than this with a long suit, which is why I asked about 3♠, as to whether it's this hand or Q10 7th and out.

You have to be kidding

I have this hand and am supposed to be willing to defend their 2-level contract doubled?

Now, if I had a decent hand with defensive prospects, iow a hand not resembling this, I would pass


It is important to know how high the double forces our side. In one partnership, we cannot defend 2m undoubled and in the other we cannot defend 2H undoubled, so a pass of 2M or, in the latter, a pass up to and including 2H is forcing. When our pass is forcing, our first double is t.o.

My pass of the redouble sets this in motion.

So (1N). X. (xx) P (2C) x. Is t.o. And pass is forcing.

If partner doubles 2C t.o. and Rho bids something, my doubles are now penalty.

So after the first double of 1N, our next double, up to the level of force, is takeout (if interested in penalizin*, we make a forcing pass). If the opps bid beyond the level of force, we can lay 2N, if available, as lebensohl with doubles as cooperative.

None of that applies on this hand, since playing for a low level penalty is insane, imo. Even tho once in a long while it may work well.

[Tramticket]

Mike,

What do you bid with:

---

I held this hand and bid an immediate 4♠ on a similar (but subtly different) auction. Various actions were discussed in this thread.

My thoughts, following on from that thread are:
Immediate 2♠: Weak, to play.
Immediate 3♠: Weak, pre-emptive.
Immediate 4♠: Weak, to play.
Pass, then bid 2♠: Invitational with spades.
Pass, then jump in spades: Forcing to game in spades.

On Cyberyeti's hand, I am not looking for penalties unless opps are vulnerable and we are not. Like you, I assess the hand as likely to have a good play for game (but I wouldn't quarrel if partner judged it invitational strength). So my action on Cyberyeti's hand would be to pass at my first turn and then jump in spades.

Edit: Another option from the previous thread is to bid 2NT (artificial) and then bid 3♠/4♠

[nekthen]

 Cyberyeti, on 2019-October-06, 13:31, said:

---

1N 12-14
X pens
XX unspecified single suit, opener bids 2♣ pass or correct

My partner has a penalty double of 1N, the way I play, this is any 15+ hand. He could have a ♠ void and be planning to tell me about his massive ♥ suit next bid.

Clearly, we expect the bidding to go:
S pass
W 2♣
N pass or dbl
E 2♥

Now we are in a pickle, do we pass and pass partners double? I believe I committed to respect all penalty doubles by partner, when I passed.
It seems to me that if I bid 2♠ immediately, I am warning partner that we may not have the balance of the points. If I bid 2♠ now I am saying that I think this could be more rewarding than a penalty dbl. I think my long spades and short hearts justify the action bid. If 2♥ is down and 4♠ can't make, I apologise and move on.

[Cyberyeti]

 mikeh, on 2019-October-06, 19:41, said:

You have to be kidding

I have this hand and am supposed to be willing to defend their 2-level contract doubled?

Now, if I had a decent hand with defensive prospects, iow a hand not resembling this, I would pass


It is important to know how high the double forces our side. In one partnership, we cannot defend 2m undoubled and in the other we cannot defend 2H undoubled, so a pass of 2M or, in the latter, a pass up to and including 2H is forcing. When our pass is forcing, our first double is t.o.

My pass of the redouble sets this in motion.

So (1N). X. (xx) P (2C) x. Is t.o. And pass is forcing.

If partner doubles 2C t.o. and Rho bids something, my doubles are now penalty.

So after the first double of 1N, our next double, up to the level of force, is takeout (if interested in penalizin*, we make a forcing pass). If the opps bid beyond the level of force, we can lay 2N, if available, as lebensohl with doubles as cooperative.

None of that applies on this hand, since playing for a low level penalty is insane, imo. Even tho once in a long while it may work well.

No I'm not intending to defend on this hand, but I might be intending to pass and bid to show a good hand (although if partner doubles 2m this could be grim for them with heart ruffs). We won't defend 2m undoubled and all Xs are for penalties in our partnership.

YOu didn't say how many spades you would bid.

[igt3]

I think it depends on IMP or MP. Playing IMPs I would bid 4S. PLaying MP 3S invitational. I don´t believe in transfers since it might be a trick having opener on lead.

[Tramticket]

 Cyberyeti, on 2019-October-07, 03:22, said:

YOu didn't say how many spades you would bid.

Mike was intending bidding 4♠:

 mikeh, on 2019-October-06, 14:53, said:

Not sure why I care about my methods on the hand. I bid what I expect to at least have play: 4S

This looks reasonable to me ... except that partner might have extras and be looking for slam (see my comments above).

[Cyberyeti]

 Tramticket, on 2019-October-07, 04:19, said:

Mike was intending bidding 4♠:

This looks reasonable to me ... except that partner might have extras and be looking for slam (see my comments above).

This was in fact precisely the problem, partner's hand was Axx, AKQJxxx, void, AQx unless 5N is unambiguously GSF you're in trouble distinguishing the hand from the same with A♦ rather than K♠.

Also swap the diamonds and the spades in partner's hand and 4♠ is not ideal

[FelicityR]

Pass followed by 3♠ seems right here, as invitational. If partner is one-suited, he/she can bid automatically after opener completes the xx 'transfer' to 2♣ (I honestly can't see that the opening 1NT bidder can pass here.)

The opening bidder is also under my partner who should have a good 15 count for the double. I assess my hand as about an 8 count. If partner has extra he/she can bid game.

HOWEVER, that is only a common sense view, not my regular partner's and my methods. I would hope partner would use a bit of logic to work out what sort of hand I have.

Bidding 3♠ immediately after the XX just looks too forcing.

[heart76]

No one has mentioned this so there is probably a good reason, but isn't nt system on after the X? Why should that change because of the XX?
I would just transfer and invite.

[Tramticket]

 heart76, on 2019-October-07, 05:11, said:

isn't nt system on after the X?
I would just transfer and invite.

No, your NT system (Stayman, Transfers) is not usually on opposite partner's penalty double, although I'm aware that a few people do this. I don't recommend this approach and you will be stuck when you hold a Yarborough with a minor suit.

[mikeh]

 Cyberyeti, on 2019-October-07, 04:36, said:

This was in fact precisely the problem, partner's hand was Axx, AKQJxxx, void, AQx unless 5N is unambiguously GSF you're in trouble distinguishing the hand from the same with A♦ rather than K♠.

Also swap the diamonds and the spades in partner's hand and 4♠ is not ideal

With the actual hand, I think 4S will surely get us to 7S. How anyone with a pulse could not find 5N after 4S escapes me. About the worst hand/suit I could ever have would be something like QJxxxxx and a side Ace or King: 4S is not a preempt. Heck, even xxxxxxx x xxx xx makes for a good slam: ruff the diamond lead, cash the spade Ace, and then run the hearts, cold on 2-1 trump. But, since 4S was an offer to take 10 tricks, I don't have that hand.

Now, as to how I'd handle 0=7=3=3, same hand swapping spades for diamonds, what I am about to say may sound as if I am arguing based on 'knowing' the hands. However, and alive to the possibility of bias, I don't think that would be true.

Simply put, I don't think I'd double with the spade void. I would bid 4H and then, if the opps bid 4S, I would double when it came back to me, to show that I was bidding 4H to make, and have defence.

I do NOT do that with the 3=7=0=3, for a number of reasons.

Firstly, when I am void in spades it is extremely likely that someone will bid that suit if I double 1N.

Btw, I am not changing methods based on how the opps run from a double, which I often won't know until it happens. So I have to anticipate responder bidding 2S and now opener, with 4 card support and a reasonable hand, can and usually should bid 3S....I can of course bid 4H but now responder may bid 4S on hands where he would be forced to pass had I overcalled 4H.


This is far more likely than that the opponents would bid to 5D.

And what if partner has spades? Partner is far more likely to jump in spades, looking for a 10 trick game, than he is to bid 5D, looking for an 11 trick game.

What if spades are split around the table?

In that case, especially if partner is on lead and has 5 spades, maybe defending 2S x'd is best, but I defy anyone to achieve that result after we start with double with the spade void....we will never be able to rely on partner catering to our void, and surely we'll be bidding 4H.

Equally, of course, with the diamond void, we won't defend a doubled diamond partial, but we can bid hearts over diamonds without raising the level...we can't do that over spades.

Yes, void AKQJxxx Axx AQx will be evaluated by virtually all metrics as the same hand as Axx AKQJxxx void AQx, but there is a lot more to the art of bidding judgment than counting points, no matter what metric or metrics one uses, especially once the auction has started.

A good player thinks about how the auction may proceed. Nobody can know for certain, but it seems to me fair for the holder of 0=7=3=3 t anticipate different issues than the holder of 3=7=0=3 would.