[criptik]

Fairly new director here.
Starting very small private tournaments (4 tables or so) for some friends.
I noticed when I configure as Unclocked, there is still a clock that counts down and last time I used "unclocked" some boards were not allowed to be played in one round but instead were given Average.
I understand the Clocked vs. Unclocked difference as pertaining to when the next round starts, etc but don't understand the use of the clock to determine
whether boards get started or finished.

Questions:
1_ In an unclocked tournament, what is the criteria for letting a board be started or finished, vs. given an Average.
2. Similar question for when boards are allowed to start or finish in a clocked tournament.
3. Also, I was using Unclocked because the director's manual made it sound like Clocked implied a Mitchell movement (N/S fixed, etc).
If I run a clocked tournament for say 4 tables, 14 boards, 2 boards per round, will I get a nice Howell movement where everyone plays each of the other 7 pairs?

[j_with_a_B]

 criptik, on 2020-April-04, 10:48, said:

Fairly new director here.
Starting very small private tournaments (4 tables or so) for some friends.
I noticed when I configure as Unclocked, there is still a clock that counts down and last time I used "unclocked" some boards were not allowed to be played in one round but instead were given Average.
I understand the Clocked vs. Unclocked difference as pertaining to when the next round starts, etc but don't understand the use of the clock to determine
whether boards get started or finished.

Questions:
1_ In an unclocked tournament, what is the criteria for letting a board be started or finished, vs. given an Average.
2. Similar question for when boards are allowed to start or finish in a clocked tournament.
3. Also, I was using Unclocked because the director's manual made it sound like Clocked implied a Mitchell movement (N/S fixed, etc).
If I run a clocked tournament for say 4 tables, 14 boards, 2 boards per round, will I get a nice Howell movement where everyone plays each of the other 7 pairs?

The clock in the unclocked tourneys is to determine if a table will continue to play the rest of the boards in the round. When unclocked, any table not starting to bid a hand with at least 4 minutes left on the clock will have the rest of that round cancelled. Averages, A==, are assigned by BBO to both sides, and players don't even see the cards.
If they have seen the cards for a hand they will be able to finish it regardless of what the clock says.
In an unclocked tourney the clock is reset for each table each time a new round starts.
The slowest tables at the end are usually due to people having to wait for others earlier in the tourney to finish a round before they can move on.
The fastest players play each new round with other fast players right away and usually move on through the whole tourney much quicker.
If a table is slow and misses a hand in a round I will neither reward nor punish either side for a hand they cannot play and they don't even see!

I prefer unclocked to clocked tourneys since there is never a need to go and make adjustments on tables that time out playing the last tricks of a hand.

[0 carbon]

Further boards not played when time <3 (vs 4 or less) for CLOCKED tourneys.

[Uptown3]

 j_with_a_B, on 2020-April-04, 18:03, said:

The clock in the unclocked tourneys is to determine if a table will continue to play the rest of the boards in the round. When unclocked, any table not starting to bid a hand with at least 4 minutes left on the clock will have the rest of that round cancelled. Averages, A==, are assigned by BBO to both sides, and players don't even see the cards.
If they have seen the cards for a hand they will be able to finish it regardless of what the clock says.
In an unclocked tourney the clock is reset for each table each time a new round starts.
The slowest tables at the end are usually due to people having to wait for others earlier in the tourney to finish a round before they can move on.
The fastest players play each new round with other fast players right away and usually move on through the whole tourney much quicker.
If a table is slow and misses a hand in a round I will neither reward nor punish either side for a hand they cannot play and they don't even see!

I prefer unclocked to clocked tourneys since there is never a need to go and make adjustments on tables that time out playing the last tricks of a hand.

Sorry, I don't quite understand how a clocked tourney works. What happens when the clock runs out if a table a) hasn't seen the cards in the last hand of the round, b) hasn't started playing the hand in the last hand of the round? Also, you said above: "In an unclocked tourney the clock is reset for each table each time a new round starts." How is that different than a clocked tourney? The few clocked tourneys I have directed re-set the clock for each table at the beginning of each round. Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by "reset for each table"?

[barmar]

In a clocked tournament, when the clock hits 0 you're moved to the next round, even if you're in the middle of a hand. All the boards you didn't finish are automatically given average scores. If you're in the middle of playing a board, the TD can adjust the score.

In an unclocked tournament, you won't move to the next round until you finish the board in progress. You can start a new board as long as there's at least 4 minutes left on the clock.

[Uptown3]

 barmar, on 2020-April-18, 10:52, said:

In a clocked tournament, when the clock hits 0 you're moved to the next round, even if you're in the middle of a hand. All the boards you didn't finish are automatically given average scores. If you're in the middle of playing a board, the TD can adjust the score.

In an unclocked tournament, you won't move to the next round until you finish the board in progress. You can start a new board as long as there's at least 4 minutes left on the clock.

Thanks!

[pescetom]

 barmar, on 2020-April-18, 10:52, said:

In a clocked tournament, when the clock hits 0 you're moved to the next round, even if you're in the middle of a hand. All the boards you didn't finish are automatically given average scores. If you're in the middle of playing a board, the TD can adjust the score.

In an unclocked tournament, you won't move to the next round until you finish the board in progress. You can start a new board as long as there's at least 4 minutes left on the clock.

I tried unclocked for the first time today and in terms of management it was an improvement. The tournament took no longer (it seemed), nobody failed to start a board (although only just), no boards were interrupted and I did not have to figure out what would have happened or assign blame for delay with no real data underhand.

But then the big surprise: a single classification instead of the usual Mitchell-like NS - EW lines. Is this because unclocked determines a different movement? Or did BBO quietly slip in Howell for smaller tournaments (7 tables here)?

[barmar]

Unclocked tournaments don't use a Mitchell movement, because you move as soon as you finish all the boards in the round and there's another set of pairs available to play against. Mitchell requires waiting for a specific table to finish.

[pescetom]

 barmar, on 2020-April-19, 15:48, said:

Unclocked tournaments don't use a Mitchell movement, because you move as soon as you finish all the boards in the round and there's another set of pairs available to play against. Mitchell requires waiting for a specific table to finish.

Thanks. So will Unclocked work correctly in an individual tournament too (I get a sore head trying to imagine how that works) ?

[biometrics]

Yesterday: 5 Tables; 7 rounds a 3 Boards unclocked. NO replays.


For me best way to set up Howell like tournaments.

[0 carbon]

 barmar, on 2020-April-19, 15:48, said:

Unclocked tournaments don't use a Mitchell movement, because you move as soon as you finish all the boards in the round and there's another set of pairs available to play against. Mitchell requires waiting for a specific table to finish.

Actually, the next round starts only when two tables have finished, ie 4 pairs. Check tourney status - "Done" is either 1 or 2.

[pescetom]

 pescetom, on 2020-April-22, 02:42, said:

Thanks. So will Unclocked work correctly in an individual tournament too (I get a sore head trying to imagine how that works) ?

It's bad form to answer one's own question, but as nobody else did...
don't try this at home folks.

I tried it and it was not successful, with many players complaining that they met the same people time and time again,
plus some long waits between hands (-2 on clock) towards the end.
I guess the faster players ended up with the faster players and vice versa, which will also bias the classification
(strong players tend to be faster, so someone who is just average but unusually fast may end up near bottom).

[biometrics]

I tried now for five times and it worked perfectly. 5 tables 7 rounds. Never any replays. Only drawback: if you do have some really slow pairs some might wait for 8 - 12 minutes at the end of the tournament (up to -9).

[pescetom]

 biometrics, on 2020-April-26, 08:30, said:

I tried now for five times and it worked perfectly. 5 tables 7 rounds. Never any replays. Only drawback: if you do have some really slow pairs some might wait for 8 - 12 minutes at the end of the tournament (up to -9).

If you are talking about unclocked with pairs (as I assume) I would say perfect is an overbid.
It works and never interrupts play, but I have some doubts about the result it produces and it can leave several players unhappy.

I ran unclocked for 6 tables today with 6 rounds of 4 boards.
8 of the 12 pairs opposed 6 different pairs and were happy.
The 4 slowest pairs during the last 3 rounds opposed pairs they had already met and were unhappy.
As a Director I can live with this but it's not perfect, especially as slow pairs are rarely happy (or even convinced) when you point out they are slow.

I concede that assigning 6 rounds with 6 tables is Mitchell thinking and probably not optimal for BBO unclocked.
I note that you chose 7 rounds with 5 tables.
Do BBO movement experts have any suggestions about the optimal number of rounds for 5/6/7 tables with unclocked?

[criptik]

 pescetom, on 2020-April-26, 13:13, said:

If you are talking about unclocked with pairs (as I assume) I would say perfect is an overbid.
It works and never interrupts play, but I have some doubts about the result it produces and it can leave several players unhappy.

I ran unclocked for 6 tables today with 6 rounds of 4 boards.
8 of the 12 pairs opposed 6 different pairs and were happy.
The 4 slowest pairs during the last 3 rounds opposed pairs they had already met and were unhappy.
As a Director I can live with this but it's not perfect, especially as slow pairs are rarely happy (or even convinced) when you point out they are slow.

I concede that assigning 6 rounds with 6 tables is Mitchell thinking and probably not optimal for BBO unclocked.
I note that you chose 7 rounds with 5 tables.
Do BBO movement experts have any suggestions about the optimal number of rounds for 5/6/7 tables with unclocked?

I would think that it would be easier to get no replays with six rounds than it would with 7 rounds. I have definitely seen cases with five tables 7 rounds where even though 1 additional table was finished still we waited because both pairs at that other finished table had already been played. Can someone with access to the source describe what the algorithm actually is?