[arepo24]

Can you make a penalty double when the bidding has completed on what you believe your partner has in his/her hand?

[smerriman]

Well, not when the bidding has completed. But prior to that, of course; in some situations partner's pass *requires* to you choose between doubling or bidding.

[arepo24]

But when you double the opponents for penalty are you doing so strictly on your own hand or are you including what you believe might also be in your partner's hand? That is my question.

[Stephen Tu]

You can make a double for any reason you want, based on authorized information (looking at your hand, bids made by opps and partner). You can't make a double based on unauthorized information (e.g. a break in tempo by partner followed by a pass suggesting he has extra points/defense undisclosed by actual previous bids, that makes you want to double when opposite normal tempo you'd just pass it out)

Whether it's a good idea or not, from a bridge strategy point of view, is another matter.

Certainly if partner has voluntarily shown strength in the auction, by doing something such as opening the bidding, or making a strength showing double, or other voluntary bids indicating strength, you are entitled to play them for a defensive trick or two (or more, depending on auction), you would add partner's expected defensive tricks to your own expected tricks to gauge whether a penalty double is percentage (be wary of counting too many tricks in your side's suit fits or potential fits as opponents can easily have stiff or void there in either hand and potential defensive cashers get ruffed away). You don't need them set in your own hand to make a double, you can estimate a contribution from partner, though you usually want to leave some margin for error especially at IMPs.

[arepo24]

My partner doesn't always open with 12 or 13 so how can I speculate and include them in to my penalty double? Shouldn't I only double depending on my own hand?

[helene_t]

arepo24, on 2020-April-19, 19:41, said:

My partner doesn't always open with 12 or 13 so how can I speculate and include them in to my penalty double? Shouldn't I only double depending on my own hand?

Maybe you could give a concrete example?

Suppose it goes:

1NT-(4♠)-?
You know that partner has a balanced 15-17 point. On a bad day he might have zero defensive tricks, but usually he will have two or three. So if you have two defensive tricks, probably even if you have one, you double based on the expectation that partner can help. Since partner knows nothing about your hand and you know a lot about his hand, it is your duty to make a decision. Whether you chose to double or pass, partner will respect your decision.

If both partners only double when they have four defensive tricks in their own hand, we will allow opps to play undoubled when both of us have two or three tricks. That's no good.

1NT-(pass)-3NT-(4♠)
?

You may think that partner has some defensive tricks based on his 3NT bid, but you can't be sure. Sometimes he bids 3NT based on a long minor suit that is worthless in defense. Or 3NT could even be a psyche. More importantly, partner still has a turn and he already knows that you have 15-17 balanced. So if you have nothing special other than what youor 1NT opening already suggested, just pass and leave it to partner. If your hand is better for defense than your 1NT opening suggested, double. If you have 3 defensive tricks you should probably double on the expectation that partner has a defensive trick, and to discourage him from bidding on. If partner has zero defensive tricks you may have bad luck, but maybe he will take it out anyway even if you double.

Those two examples are based on the assumption that your partnership agreement is that double would be penalty in both situations and that pass would be nonforcing. You may play double as take-out or optional, in that case the situation is different.

[AL78]

arepo24, on 2020-April-19, 19:41, said:

My partner doesn't always open with 12 or 13 so how can I speculate and include them in to my penalty double? Shouldn't I only double depending on my own hand?

You use information from the bidding to judge what the defensive prospects are of your hand and partner's hanmd combined. If partner has bid in a way that suggests they have values and a balanced/semi-balanced hand, and you can see the opponents trump suit is breaking badly (i.e. you hold four or five of them), and the penalty you gain is likely to be better that whatever contract is available your way, that would be a good reason to penalty double. If partner hasn't bid at all, it is harder to judge that a penalty will be profitable, because they could be sat there with a useless hand, in suchj cases you would lean towards a penalty double if you can see the setting tricks in your hand to high probability. It also depends on whether the opponents have freely bid to their contract, or have you pushed them up, the latter is where a penalty double is more likely to work well for you.

Another example where you will consider penalty doubling is at MPs, in a part score battle, where the HCP look to be evenly split, and each side has a fit. If you and partner bid to 3♥, and the opponents bid 3♠, and you know game is not on your way, you would consider going for a penalty if the opps are vulnerable, because if their contract makes and everyone else is allowed to play in 3♥ your way, you get a bottom whether you double or not, but if 3♠ is one down and 3♥ makes, doubling converts a bottom into a top.

Whether you penalty double or not depends on not just your own hand. It depends on the method of scoring, whether the opponents bid freely or are sacrificing, does it look like a misfit deal, and whether partner has bid, and if so, what have they said about their defensive prospects.

[arepo24]

Someone once told me you never double for penalty on your partner's hand. If you think you can set them with your own hand, double.

Here is an example:
Partner opens with a heart. At this point I assume she has at least 12 points.
Anyway, the ops get to 4S quickly and I have a good hand and 2 A, so along with my partner's opening I bid believe we can set them so I double.
After it is all over and the ops made their bid, I view my partner's hand. She had 9 points, 6 hearts and 5 diamonds and 1 each in the dark suits.
She was annoyed that I doubled by including her hand in the double, which I assumed she had opened with 12 or 13.
Did I do wrong?

[AL78]

arepo24, on 2020-April-20, 08:31, said:

Someone once told me you never double for penalty on your partner's hand. If you think you can set them with your own hand, double.

Here is an example:
Partner opens with a heart. At this point I assume she has at least 12 points.
Anyway, the ops get to 4S quickly and I have a good hand and 2 A, so along with my partner's opening I bid believe we can set them so I double.
After it is all over and the ops made their bid, I view my partner's hand. She had 9 points, 6 hearts and 5 diamonds and 1 each in the dark suits.
She was annoyed that I doubled by including her hand in the double, which I assumed she had opened with 12 or 13.
Did I do wrong?

Difficult to say for sure without seeing your hand and the auction in full, it could have been poor judgement by you, or unlucky your partner made a poor opening bid misleading you into thinking you both had more defence. If your partner is going to open very light on very distributional hands, they should consider pulling your penalty double, as they don't have the defensive strength you might expect (yes I know that could backfire, but that is the price of wild bidding).

I don't get how your partner will open a distributional 9 count, but not open with some 12-13 HCP hands. There aren't that many 12-13 HCP hands that are not worth opening. An inconsistent partner makes bidding judgement much harder.

You can't automatically assume your partner will have 12 HCP with a 1 suit opening bid. Distribution does lower the threshold to about 10 HCP with 5-5 or 6-5. I wouldn't open with a 6-5 9 count,. I would take a chance on being able to make a 2 suited overcall next time, or partner opening the bidding.

[Stephen Tu]

arepo24, on 2020-April-20, 08:31, said:

Someone once told me you never double for penalty on your partner's hand. If you think you can set them with your own hand, double.

That's far too conservative a position. You'll miss too many good penalties if you always assume partner contributes nothing.

Quote

Partner opens with a heart. At this point I assume she has at least 12 points.
Anyway, the ops get to 4S quickly and I have a good hand and 2 A, so along with my partner's opening I bid believe we can set them so I double.
After it is all over and the ops made their bid, I view my partner's hand. She had 9 points, 6 hearts and 5 diamonds and 1 each in the dark suits.
She was annoyed that I doubled by including her hand in the double, which I assumed she had opened with 12 or 13.
Did I do wrong?

Maybe, maybe not. You'd have to give the hands and actual auction. It may be that you were supposed to bid on rather than dbl, or partner was supposed to bid over them at some point.
When partner opens the bidding, generally you give them a min of 2-2.5 "defensive tricks" as an initial estimate. But then you should adjust your evaluation of your defensive (and offensive) potential based on the auction.

• If you have a 9 or 10 cd trump fit, you are probably getting 1 trick in that suit *at most*. Maybe zero. The opps can have void or ace opposite stiff. So your partner's supposed 2 tricks becomes 1 trick. Or less.
• Same goes for side suit in which you have big fit, or might have big fit (that the opps preempted you out of confirming).
• If opps are confidently bidding a lot, they probably have a big fit and shape, in general discount potential tricks in your side's suits rather than theirs. With huge trump fits or double fits, with points in your side's long suits, tend towards bidding more yourself instead of doubling them.

In any case, leave some margin of error for partner having a light distributional opener, or the opps having shape negating your high cards. But generally it's OK to play partner for a trick if they show a min opener.

But sometimes both partners make reasonable calls, you double them, they make anyway because of great distribution that you can't forsee. It happens. If they NEVER make their contract, you aren't doubling enough.

[arepo24]

Thanks all for your replies

[arepo24]

So I guess the simple answer is, yes, it can be okay to include your partner's bid when making a penalty double. Thanks all.

[helene_t]

arepo24, on 2020-April-20, 08:31, said:

Partner opens with a heart. At this point I assume she has at least 12 points.
Anyway, the ops get to 4S quickly and I have a good hand and 2 A, so along with my partner's opening I bid believe we can set them so I double.
After it is all over and the ops made their bid, I view my partner's hand. She had 9 points, 6 hearts and 5 diamonds and 1 each in the dark suits.

Depends how many hearts you had. With five hearts, or four plus shortness in their suit, probably 5♥ would be better than double.

But you can't pass with two aces. And without 4-card heart support, there's only double left.

Partner should probably have taken the double out. If your agreement is that the double is 100% penalty and she can't take it out, then you just had bad luck on this board.

[neilkaz]

About 30 years ago this hand meant that my team won the U100 teams at the San Diego NABC. The unopposed auction by my vul opps went 1NT(15-17)-2♣-2♥-3♥(invite as they said when I asked)-4♥.

So holding only 4 HCP which was A♥ and all 5 missing trump I doubled since PD likely has 10+ HCP and declarer whom I knew wasn't a super star. They went -800. They should run to 4NTx but that would likely be -500 and that don't know that.

[Zelandakh]

There are times when not doubling based on partner's hand may even be an offence, such as fielding a psyche from a CPU or because of UI. If you are only ever doubling for penalties being able to defeat a contract in your own hand then you are doing it wrong. If you psyche and your partner doubles based on some expectation of strength then you are 100% at fault.

[Vampyr]

Zelandakh, on 2020-April-22, 04:41, said:

There are times when not doubling based on partner's hand may even be an offence, such as fielding a psyche from a CPU or because of UI. If you are only ever doubling for penalties being able to defeat a contract in your own hand then you are doing it wrong. If you psyche and your partner doubles based on some expectation of strength then you are 100% at fault.

I think there is an exception here, that being doubling a strong NT for penalties . If RHO has opened a strong NT and you have enough to double, there are very few points available for partner and LHO. So you should have the potential to set the contract in your own hand if things go well. They don’t always though!

[pescetom]

Vampyr, on 2020-April-22, 13:53, said:

I think there is an exception here, that being doubling a strong NT for penalties . If RHO has opened a strong NT and you have enough to double, there are very few points available for partner and LHO. So you should have the potential to set the contract in your own hand if things go well. They don’t always though!

My bridge experience is not that long, but long enough to distrust this particular double immensely - more often than not it leads to a poor MP score.
I much prefer some artificial agreement for the double such as an undisclosed 4-card major and 5-card minor.

[Vampyr]

pescetom, on 2020-April-22, 14:55, said:

My bridge experience is not that long, but long enough to distrust this particular double immensely - more often than not it leads to a poor MP score.
I much prefer some artificial agreement for the double such as an undisclosed 4-card major and 5-card minor.

Not many people have agreements which include a penalty double over a strong NT. There are some, though, who rarely encounter it and just use the same system as they do over a weak NT, and this will often include a penalty double. And newer players will do well to stick with natural bids here. So it can happen.

This does bring up a point relevant to the OP’s question. The double of a NT overcall is a very effective weapon. Well, you cannot have a strong NT yourself, since partner opened. You will have maybe 9 or 10 or even 8 points for this double and will not be expecting to take 7 tricks on your own.

[Cyberyeti]

There are some auctions where it's safer than others to double on partner's hand. eg 1N-2♣-2♠-3♠-4♠ you know they have an 8 card fit and not much in the way of values to spare so probably can't make 4N, if you have ♠QJ1098 and out, double will be a big winner in the long run, if you have a spade void and 2 aces it may well be.

[mycroft]

Penalty doubles of strong 1NT don't come up very often, but when they are right, they are *very right* - frequently -3 into nothing. It also is great for the Matchpoint +200 (vs Matchpoint -180, sure). But primarily those that still play them are hoping for the same thing they do with a weak NT - letting partner know whose hand it is when the opponents pull.

Of course the best penalty doubles of strong 1NT are like the best penalty doubles of weak NTs - AKQJxxx, or QJT9xxx and a couple of aces. Lots of room there for the other two hands to have stuff. It's actually why I like (but don't play) Brozel vs Strong NT - the "semi-solid" one-suiter double works really well when partner, looking at a flat hand with expectation of getting in a couple of times to lead partner's suit through the NTer's stopper, passes it.