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How to best show a fit with 4 cards

#1 User is offline   Rautz 

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Posted 2020-June-17, 14:19

Hello,

I struggle a bit in these situations:

All vulnerable
Action to me is 1(partner) - 2

I have
KQT853
KQT6
6
62

I briefly considered 2, 3
I settled on responding 3, thinking it represents 10-11p with 4 hearts.
Am I wrong in thinking that? (I then remembered 3 may mean weakness, and sure enough my partner thought so too)

So what would 3 mean here and what would be the correct bid?


Thank you
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-June-17, 14:30

This is not an invite, it's a GF (consider that you probably only need 2 aces to make game, the 3 non diamond aces to make a small slam and 4 bare aces to make a grand), your options.

2N if you still play this as an artificial raise
3 which most people play as some sort of raise
3 fit jump if you play them
4 splinter

You are way too good for 3 and arguably 4
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#3 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2020-June-17, 14:31

Hi,

the first decision to make, do you want to play game, the hand has 10HCP, + distributional points (shortage, 9th trump),
basially enough to insist on game facing an opener, hence you dont want to make a nonforcing bid, so:
Even if 3H showes 10-11p with 4 card support it would be nonforcing, and not enough.

Absent special agreements bid 4H, otherwise:
A common simple and pretty good agreement is: Direct raises are preemptiv, strong raises go via bidding their suit, i.e.
in your given auction bid 2D (the enemy suit) followed by bidding the fit suit.
Since you have neg. doubles for non fit purposes, the cue already showes the fit, but even if unsure, if partner takes
such a bid as fit showing, partner should never pass your bid of the enemy suit, i.e. you should get another round.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#4 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2020-June-17, 16:12

Hi and welcome to the forum. A general advice I’d give you is if you can make several bids, one nat and one artificial, prefer the natural one. Also, if you already know strain and level (unless very exceptional hand from partner), go for it asap without telling your life to opponents. Otherwise, take your time to describe and explore. Ok that is 2 general pcs of advice, and not 1😉

Here, as the others pointed out, your assessment of your hand as an invite w/ 4-cds is too pessimistic:
- 10 HCP concentrated so honors working together in your long suits
- powerful distribution 6421: shortage in opponents suit and establishable side-suit

So you know you are committing to game. Your ambitions are not necessarily limited to game as some nice fitting hands from partner might be enough to make slam a good bet or successfully bid 5H making over a potential 5D save from opps.

Now that we’ve ruled out 3 and 4H, what could be left:
- 3D cue bid (GF, fit, but not really more precise, often a heavy raise with balanced shape...but not always)
- 4D splinter if you play this convention (basically a nice hand with game strength and a shortage, that can produce slam if the hands match)
- 2S to show at least 10 HCP or so, and a real suit (and you’ll be able to fit H or splinter later if partner for instance bids 2NT, and then you can proudly table dummy with the feeling of having done the job)
- others but they require special agreements while the cue bid and the splinter are fairly « standard »

So 2S planning to fit H at the next round is probably a good way to convey your hand.
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#5 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2020-June-18, 02:28

I'm going to have to disagree with some of the meanings of the bids explained by others. The general advice given is absolutely great, but translating that into the correct bid is a matter of partnership agreements. My thoughts if I had your hand on that sequence:

I have 10 beautiful points. The shape alone is excellent, and partner has shown me that we have a 5-4 fit. On top of that, the tens in my hand make the hand extremely solid. At this point I want to commit to game, and consider slam investigations. I'm not overly enthusiastic about slam though, missing all 4 aces. But I want to give partner a small nudge in case they have the exact right hand (something like Ax, Axxxx, xxxx, AK). So now that I've made my goals clear, let's look at what all the bids I have available would mean. With my regular partner they would mean:

pass - weak, nothing to mention, generally 2 hearts or fewer.
double - some points but too weak for a(ny) forcing bid, often 4 spades and 1-2 hearts.
2 - about 4-8 points and at least 3 hearts, to play.
2 - 5+ spades, forcing (so about 9+ points). Denies hearts unless I'm interested in a slam.
2NT - Conventional, a limit raise or better with 4+ hearts. Sets the trump suit.
3 - GF and natural. Denies hearts unless I'm interested in a slam.
3 - Conventional, a limit raise or better with exactly 3 hearts.
3 - pre-emptive and weak, around 3-7 points with usually a four-card heart suit.
3 - pre-emptive, weak, to play. Promises around 7 spades and denies hearts.
3NT - to play, a solid opener with a double diamond stopper. 3 hearts possible.
4 - fitbid, a 'decent' club suit (depends on the vulnerability, but about AJTxx or better) with 4+ hearts and 7-13 points.
4 - splinter, diamond shortness (0-1) with 4 or more hearts and 9-13 points.
4 - pre-emptive and weak, around 3-7 points with either a five card heart suit or a 3 card heart suit with a running side suit.

I therefore have two options, I can bid 2 now and show heart support on the next round to indicate I might be interested in slam, or I can bid our artificial 2NT. At the table I would start with 2, reasoning that it gives partner a better chance to evaluate their hand. But some partnerships have different agreements here - for example 2 NF, or 3 GF, or 3 fitbid, or 4 showing a strong hand. In the absence of agreements you have a tough call to make, so if you have the chance I think it is worth discussing with your partner what your possible bids would mean (and if they are forcing or not) on this sequence.
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#6 User is offline   Rautz 

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Posted 2020-June-21, 05:40

Thank you all for the great responses
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#7 User is offline   nullcorp 

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Posted 2020-August-26, 16:05

You got a lot of long answers, but to distill it a bit further, you are DEFINITELY in 4H with your hand and slam is on the table.

Most players would consider jumps over opponents as weak (i.e. 3) and the stronger bid here is a 3 cue bid showing support and limit raise +. The big difference is the former can be passed. Obviously the cue can't be unless your partner has lost their mind.

I frequently tell students (I'm no expert btw but I teach beginners) to not mess around with other suits once a strain is identified. The longer answer is that you can make forcing bids (e.g. 2S, X) to get more description in certain cases. This isn't really such a case.

My plan would be to bid 3 and see what partner does. 3 is minimum, 4 implies a bit more. Any non-heart bid (except NT) at this point is probably a control sequence, and 3NT would be semi-serious to play.
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#8 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-August-28, 20:20

View PostRautz, on 2020-June-17, 14:19, said:

Hello,

I struggle a bit in these situations:

All vulnerable
Action to me is 1(partner) - 2

I have
KQT853
KQT6
6
62

I briefly considered 2, 3
I settled on responding 3, thinking it represents 10-11p with 4 hearts.
Am I wrong in thinking that? (I then remembered 3 may mean weakness, and sure enough my partner thought so too)

So what would 3 mean here and what would be the correct bid?


Thank you


I would listen to those who know more above but to me you are possibly looking to investigate a slam so need to force, without signing off in game prematurely. My choice would possibly be a splinter (EDIT sorry you cant splinter can you in RHO's suit??), a cue or something - if its playing 2/1 I rely often on GiB's notes because some of the bids a re still a mysetery to me. 3 hearts is too weak as is 4 hearts. Maybe spades and then force later. There is the Jacoby 2NT which shows 13+ pts and 4 trumps but I thought it needed a flatter hand, and I don't know if it is on after interference. As I say, mostly I rely on bidding tips from GiB.

Just a thought though, what would partner have done if you bid 4H and they had a good opener?

EDIT Possum Sim gives estimated average number of tricks 10.45 (SD approx 1), chance of game approximately 86%, chance of better than game 47% so you definitely don't want to stop prematurely :)
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#9 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2020-August-29, 04:32

View Postthepossum, on 2020-August-28, 20:20, said:

sorry you cant splinter can you in RHO's suit??

Yes you can. For many people in a contested auction you can't splinter in any suit except the opponents'.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#10 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-August-29, 17:39

View Postgordontd, on 2020-August-29, 04:32, said:

Yes you can. For many people in a contested auction you can't splinter in any suit except the opponents'.


ok thx Gordon. I don't think I have ever splintered in that situation before
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#11 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2020-August-30, 06:24

View Postthepossum, on 2020-August-29, 17:39, said:

ok thx Gordon. I don't think I have ever splintered in that situation before


If you use Splinter bids at all, a Splinter in a suit bid by an opponent is the most useful. This is because this suit is more likely to be led and because you and partner are less likely to hold high cards there to control the suit.
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#12 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-August-30, 14:43

Another thing to consider is the rank of the splinter suit versus your fit suit. If it is the suit below your major suit fit (as in this case) then partner has no chance to make a control showing bid below game. The ideal situation is to splinter in the suit immediately above.
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