BBO Discussion Forums: Have the rules changed? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Have the rules changed?

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,327
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Currently in New Zealand
  • Interests:Bridge, boogie boarding, hiking

Posted 2020-July-03, 21:05

So, it's been a while. Playing in a ACBL game tonight, against a precision pair who alerted/explained 1 3 card suit as '9-14' and did not alert subsequent bids.
Of course I find this out when I lead against 3nt and choose a mild comment about male bovine excrement , the director then removes me from the tournament, citing zero tolerance. Have the alert rules changed or are they simply ignored?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
0

#2 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-July-04, 00:52

Who knows? We need more information.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#3 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,663
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2020-July-04, 13:06

I assume this is the hand. So the 1 was a response to a "15+" 1 opening (unclear whether it actually shows or not but it is definitely not "15+ any") and the "9-14" actually means "9-14, any shape". It seems to me that for someone that knows their system the alerts probably make perfect sense but for anyone else they are not particularly well thought out.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
0

#4 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,663
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2020-July-04, 13:16

OK I managed to find another hand from the same pair with the correct alert. So at least we know what the 1 response means although I am still a little confused about the 1 opening.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
0

#5 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,663
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2020-July-04, 13:20

And here is another non-alerted 3 card suit bid with a clear influence on the subsequent auction that appears to have been condoned. So my conclusion is that the alerting rules simply do not apply to this system.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
0

#6 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,663
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2020-July-04, 13:23

This 3NT is the best alert description ever!
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
0

#7 User is offline   hrothgar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,248
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Natick, MA
  • Interests:Travel
    Cooking
    Brewing
    Hiking

Posted 2020-July-04, 14:36

View Postjillybean, on 2020-July-03, 21:05, said:

So, it's been a while. Playing in a ACBL game tonight, against a precision pair who alerted/explained 1 3 card suit as '9-14' and did not alert subsequent bids.
Of course I find this out when I lead against 3nt and choose a mild comment about male bovine excrement , the director then removes me from the tournament, citing zero tolerance. Have the alert rules changed or are they simply ignored?


So the conventional wisdom is that,

while the ACBL sells master points on BBO in "sanctioned" ACBL tournaments, the staff that directs them are not ACBL directors, nor do the actually use ACBL regulations. Rather, they do whatever they feel like.

Good luck...
Alderaan delenda est
0

#8 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,663
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2020-July-04, 14:37

After going through as many hands as I am willing to, my conclusion is that the 1 opening is more or less "15+ clubs/balanced; or any GF", with any 5332 hand being treated as balanced. Is that enough information for you to rule Gordon?
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
0

#9 User is offline   PrecisionL 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 885
  • Joined: 2004-March-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Knoxville, TN, USA
  • Interests:Diamond LM (5500+ MP) District 7, Unit 165, E. Tennessee

Posted 2020-July-04, 14:57

Jillybean,

I play something similar and alert and describe the bid before posting the bid when playing on BBO.

Be aware that many responses to 1 may be transfers or artificial these days.

Good players have filled out convention cards that post.
Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: https://bridgewithda...19/07/Ultra.pdf
C3: Copious Canapé is still my favorite system. (Ultra upgraded, PM for notes)

Played Mosca (Nightmare-Fantunes-Millennium like) system with Canapé, 11-14 NT.

Santa Fe Precision published 8/19. TOP3 published 11/20. Magic experiment (Science Modernized) with Lenzo. 2020: Jan Eric Larsson's Cottontail Club. 2020: C3 Reborn - T-Precision with Relays & 4cd M. BFUN (Bridge For the UNbalanced) 2021: Weiss Simplified (Canapé & Relay). 2022: Canary Modernized.
0

#10 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,490
  • Joined: 2008-September-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2020-July-04, 18:58

View PostZelandakh, on 2020-July-04, 13:23, said:

This 3NT is the best alert description ever!

Also, the 1 opener had 16 HCP. Somebody who was curious might ask why this wasn't opened 1 which is 15+.
0

#11 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,490
  • Joined: 2008-September-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2020-July-04, 19:06

View PostPrecisionL, on 2020-July-04, 14:57, said:

Jillybean,

I play something similar and alert and describe the bid before posting the bid when playing on BBO.

Be aware that many responses to 1 may be transfers or artificial these days.

Good players have filled out convention cards that post.

Having a convention card posted online is great. Giving descriptive and accurate alert messages is even better.

Having a convention card but not alerting (alertable bids), or giving inaccurate alert messages is against the rules of the game.
0

#12 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,490
  • Joined: 2008-September-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2020-July-04, 19:15

View PostZelandakh, on 2020-July-04, 13:20, said:

And here is another non-alerted 3 card suit bid with a clear influence on the subsequent auction that appears to have been condoned. So my conclusion is that the alerting rules simply do not apply to this system.

I don't know about applying to this system, but apparently it doesn't apply to the pair playing the system. To be fair, that pair may just be very sloppy in their alerts but they need to be warned to improve their compliance with the alert rules. It's also unknown if there were private messages to the opponents to clarify the missing or incomplete alerts. Based on Jillybean's post, there wasn't any clarification.
0

#13 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,327
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Currently in New Zealand
  • Interests:Bridge, boogie boarding, hiking

Posted 2020-July-04, 19:18

Ok, I really must quit complaining, lower my expectations and stop explaining what our bids actually show.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
0

#14 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,327
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Currently in New Zealand
  • Interests:Bridge, boogie boarding, hiking

Posted 2020-July-04, 19:21

View Postjohnu, on 2020-July-04, 19:15, said:

It's also unknown if there were private messages to the opponents to clarify the missing or incomplete alerts.

This annoys me. I do believe it is the opponents duty to provide full disclosure, not my job to ask the right questions or assume explanations are incomplete and ask for clarification. But I must admit, it has come to that.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
0

#15 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,327
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Currently in New Zealand
  • Interests:Bridge, boogie boarding, hiking

Posted 2020-July-04, 19:24

View Posthrothgar, on 2020-July-04, 14:36, said:

So the conventional wisdom is that,

while the ACBL sells master points on BBO in "sanctioned" ACBL tournaments, the staff that directs them are not ACBL directors, nor do the actually use ACBL regulations. Rather, they do whatever they feel like.

Good luck...


Right, thanks.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
0

#16 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,366
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2020-July-04, 20:08

A reminder that the ACBL games on BBO (as opposed to the recent sectional and regional at home) are BBO's sanctioned ACBL club. While, like many clubs in real life, some TDs in this club are ACBL tournament-rated, many are club-rated only (like many clubs in real life).

I would prefer better explanations myself, and better rulings from club TDs when faced with misleading explanations. But I've played at clubs too.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#17 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2020-July-04, 20:35

  • BBO provides cards for different basic systems, that pairs can adopt or adapt.
  • TDs should make system-cards compulsory as part of tournament COC.
  • TDs should redress damage due to inadequate disclosure and consider additional penalties.
  • For a level playing field and a more enjoyable game, players need to learn better habits.

0

#18 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,366
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2020-July-05, 10:22

¡Si, Señor! Por favor, enjoy the view of that beautiful windmill on your right...
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#19 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2020-July-05, 11:02

View Postmycroft, on 2020-July-05, 10:22, said:

¡Si, Señor! Por favor, enjoy the view of that beautiful windmill on your right...
Sancho has a point :)
0

#20 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,366
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2020-July-06, 10:16

And Don Quixote also had a point - and so do you. And that was (I'm told) Cervantes' point.

I am pushing for more compliance (and stronger enforcement) with CC requirements locally (especially as Alerting in the ACBL is going to change tremendously RSN, and many things, in particular, aggressive openers, that are currently HU&U Alertable will no longer be Alertable or Pre-Alertable). As far as I'm concerned, a mandate from Management that for the next year after we go back to RL tournaments that failure to have your CC in sight during play triggers the same immediate no-tolerance 1st warning and 2nd 1/4 board penalty for cell phone use, TDs, you will enforce this in all districts - will solve the "attitude" that CCs are optional, despite the daily notices in the Bulletins and...

But oh, the whining, especially on That Other Site (except for Debbie R., of course!) And Management won't do it, because as always, the players want *everybody else* to follow the rules, but how dare you require *me* to do this?
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users