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True canapé with Opener 6-5 either way

#1 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-March-03, 05:18

Idea: In a natural(ish) system, open the shorter (5c) suit with 6(+)-5/5-6(+) shape.

This could help solve two problems:

1) In some Italian 2/1-like systems 3-level jump reverses e.g. of the form

1x-1y
3z*,

* y>z>x

shows 6+x5z and a hand too weak for a normal reverse.

I believe this is a much better use of the jump reverse than mini-Splinter, but unfortunately the bidding is sometimes already too high.

It seems like Responder would be able to pass 3z more often if it showed 5(+)x6+z instead.

2) In my (range-first) relay structure I currently resolve (6511) at 4 (more than low enough IMO) but (6520) at 4 (too high).

A solution, after a 1x opening with 5x6z, could to treat

5x6z20 (currently resolved at 4)

as equivalent to (a very dissimilar shape such as) e.g.

6x0z34 (currently resolved at 4)

when resolving shape, but rely on Asker's ability to "guess" (by looking at his own hand and drawing conclusions from opps' silence) which of these two shapes Teller actually has.

(Guessing whether Teller has e.g.

6x5z20

or

6x0z34,

after a 1x opening (and no canapé with this shape), could be significantly more difficult.)

Spoiler

This post has been edited by nullve: 2021-March-17, 08:24

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#2 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-March-04, 06:30

Why are you at 4 for these hands? Standard symmetric for 5-5s is 2, so even if you prioritise 5-5 over 6-5 you can get all of the 5-5s in by 3 leaving 3 for 5-6 and 3NT for 6-5. Even the zoom for the 6-5 on hands with extras that could not tolerate a pass of 3NT (if you want exact shape for such hands, which most do not) only goes 4 6511; 4 6502; 4 6520. How do you get all the way up to 4?
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#3 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-March-04, 10:41

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-March-04, 06:30, said:

Why are you at 4 for these hands? Standard symmetric for 5-5s is 2, so even if you prioritise 5-5 over 6-5 you can get all of the 5-5s in by 3 leaving 3 for 5-6 and 3NT for 6-5. Even the zoom for the 6-5 on hands with extras that could not tolerate a pass of 3NT (if you want exact shape for such hands, which most do not) only goes 4 6511; 4 6502; 4 6520. How do you get all the way up to 4?

See last parts of

https://www.bridgeba...ost__p__1018946
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#4 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-March-04, 14:20

View Postnullve, on 2021-March-03, 05:18, said:

1) In some Italian 2/1-like systems 3-level jump reverses e.g. of the form

1x-1y
3z*,

* z>y>x

shows 6+x5z and a hand too weak for a normal reverse.

I take your word for it, imagine you are talking about some national level pairs.
At any lesser level in Italy this jump would be taken as a splinter, I think.

View Postnullve, on 2021-March-03, 05:18, said:

I believe this is a much better use of the jump reverse than mini-Splinter

I have never played or encountered mini-Splinter, but I thought it depended upon y>z>x (so that we could stop in 3y)?
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#5 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-March-04, 15:04

View Postpescetom, on 2021-March-04, 14:20, said:

I have never played or encountered mini-Splinter, but I thought it depended upon y>z>x (so that we could stop in 3y)?

Yes, my mistake. Corrected now.
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#6 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-March-04, 15:16

View Postnullve, on 2021-March-04, 15:04, said:

Yes, my mistake. Corrected now.


Ok. For me they're all splinters, but I'm a simple minded soul B-)
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#7 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-March-04, 16:36

View Postpescetom, on 2021-March-04, 15:16, said:

Ok. For me they're all splinters, but I'm a simple minded soul B-)

These weak jump reverses (or what to call them), even similar double-jump reverses

1-1*; 3

* = H

and

1-1; 1,

were part of the Bocchi-Duboin system (2010 book). And I believe Versace-Lauria play them.
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