BBO Discussion Forums: When RHO overcalls - Manx Hands 4 - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1

When RHO overcalls - Manx Hands 4 example hand from Douglas Bridge Club

#1 User is offline   Douglas43 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 301
  • Joined: 2020-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Man
  • Interests:Walking, boring my wife with bridge stories

Posted 2021-March-24, 03:03

This article is orientated towards players in the isle of Man where a 12-14 no trump is usual. Readers who play strong no trump may find it less use.

In a situation where you open, your partner responds and then your Right Hand Opponent overcalls, it's valuable to agree what a double by you would mean. Here are 4 possible meanings:

1. Penalties
2. If your opening 1NT is weak: a strong-no trump
3. Take-out and better than minimum
4. A "support double" showing 3 cards in partner's suit

Type 1, penalty is what we used to play when dinosaurs roamed the Earth. It brought in the odd 800 which was handy at teams, but just isn't common enough to work well at pairs.

Type 2 is probably the most common amongst weak no-trump players and is what I would expect a player in the UK to have if this came up without discussion.

Type 3 has merit and in practice is not really that different to option 2.

Type 4 the support double was invented by the top US international Eric Rodwell back in the 1970's and is massively popular amongst strong no-trump players, for good reason, because it allows partner to tell whether you have supported on three or four cards in their suit. There are people who combine it with a weak no trump, but it does leave a hole on many type 2 hands and for that reason is not usual amongst weak no trump players. It's a pity because in its own right it's an excellent gadget.

Finally, here's a hand that involves a type 2 double (this is Douglas Bridge Club, 17 March board 7)




Ultimately East-West got a bit too high in competing but the focus today is on knowing what your double means, so we won't worry about the rest of the hand
1

#2 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,271
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2021-March-24, 04:46

We actually use these "3 suits bid" doubles for a 5th use, 4 of the unbid suit without necessarily showing extra values, this has more value in other variants, eg 1-P-1-(1)-X shows 4 clubs, bidding 2 shows 5 so partner knows the extent of the fit if he has 3 or 4 and has to decide whether to compete over a number of spades.

Edit: we also apply this to cases where we've bid one suit and the opps have bid 2 ie 1-(1)-P-(1)-X
0

#3 User is offline   Douglas43 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 301
  • Joined: 2020-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Man
  • Interests:Walking, boring my wife with bridge stories

Posted 2021-March-24, 05:30

Thanks Cyberyeti, another good option
0

#4 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,910
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2021-March-24, 09:05

K/S, not Acol, so we can basically get away with it.

If opener has the hand partner expects them to have, they can pass. So we do, with most strong NTs without support. So we can use this as a support double.

It causes two issues, that we deal with:
  • the "overstrength preempt", which we effectively have to rebid the suit without consideration of strength, occasionally at the 3 level.
  • the hand not good enough to pretend to be 15 with the right support, which we "best lie" in the first round (which is sometimes "pass") and continue with in the second.

Fred Gitelman said this was the auction weak NT has no solution to (worse yet, when fourth hand bids at the 2 level and we can't 1NT). He's not wrong. We can get close, but only close. But the advantages when it doesn't happen (because we opened 1NT the first time, or when we get a cleanish auction having opened a sound 1m) make up for it.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#5 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,379
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2021-March-24, 09:44

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-March-24, 04:46, said:

We actually use these "3 suits bid" doubles for a 5th use, 4 of the unbid suit without necessarily showing extra values, this has more value in other variants, eg 1-P-1-(1)-X shows 4 clubs, bidding 2 shows 5 so partner knows the extent of the fit if he has 3 or 4 and has to decide whether to compete over a number of spades.

Edit: we also apply this to cases where we've bid one suit and the opps have bid 2 ie 1-(1)-P-(1)-X


So do we, which is why I was a bit surprised when OP said that type 3 was really not that different from type 2: I would say it is really not that different from type 5, in that takeout strongly suggests the remaining unbid suit if you already play 'negative double' logic and assume that double of a major promises 4 of the other major, u.s.w.
I guess that a more classic view of takeout (some kind of support for other three suits) probably fits well with a more natural view of 1m and 1NT openings than 2/1 with strong NT.

I still plan to move to type 4 when partner is willing.
0

#6 User is offline   Douglas43 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 301
  • Joined: 2020-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Man
  • Interests:Walking, boring my wife with bridge stories

Posted 2021-March-25, 12:59

Thanks again mycroft and pescetom. We stress to our improving players that there is no single "right" answer, so different perspectives are good. Keeps me on my toes too!

On reflection, I suppose the best description of what I play is "better than minimum hand but with no clear cut bid available", which is why it captures both strong no trump and some take-out types.
1

#7 User is offline   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 489
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2021-March-26, 02:52

View PostDouglas43, on 2021-March-25, 12:59, said:

On reflection, I suppose the best description of what I play is "better than minimum hand but with no clear cut bid available", which is why it captures both strong no trump and some take-out types.
That is my definition of a takeout double. Equivalently: "I don't know what to do, but we are not sitting here defending undoubled."
0

#8 User is online   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,873
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2021-March-26, 03:37

View PostDouglas43, on 2021-March-24, 03:03, said:

In a situation where you open, your partner responds and then your Right Hand Opponent overcalls, it's valuable to agree what a double by you would mean. Here are 4 possible meanings:
  • Penalties... is what we used to play when dinosaurs roamed the Earth. It brought in the odd 800 which was handy at teams, but just isn't common enough to work well at pairs
  • Strong-no trump (if your opening 1NT is weak)... is probably the most common amongst weak no-trump players and is what I would expect a player in the UK to have if this came up without discussion.
  • Take-out and better than minimum... has merit and in practice is not really that different to option 2.
  • Support double showing 3 cards in partner's suit... was invented by the top US international Eric Rodwell back in the 1970's and is massively popular amongst strong no-trump players, for good reason, because it allows partner to tell whether you have supported on three or four cards in their suit. There are people who combine it with a weak no trump, but it does leave a hole on many type 2 hands and for that reason is not usual amongst weak no trump players. It's a pity because in its own right it's an excellent gadget.


Instructional and thought-provoking - Thank you Douglas43. I like Support because it fits in well, whatever the notrump range. One of my weak -notrump partners is reluctant to change so we play double = Strong-notrump.


0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1


Fast Reply

  

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users